podcast 1 January 18th - Season 2 Episode 1How about: "Thriving, not just Surviving, as a Lawyer in 2025: what it really means"
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Well, welcome lawyers. Hello to episode one of season two of the Thriving Lawyer podcast. I'm Kathleen Brenner and I'm here with Carla Ferraz. And we're very pleased to be back. It's been quite a while since we have recorded a podcast, but we are looking forward to getting into 2025 again, and really beginning to talk to you.
regularly about all things The Thriving Lawyer. But just to start for those of you who don't know me I am a lawyer and I'm also a coach. So I have been in the world of coaching for over five years now. W coaching part time and working with Carla on The Thriving Lawyer at the same time that I've been working part time as special counsel for a new model law firm for the last several years doing mostly, well, Doing government work as a lawyer.
And over, you know, the last few years, as I've gotten deeper into coaching, I've absolutely thrown myself into all things, coaching practice and learning. And I've done hundreds of hours of coaching coach training, including currently being enrolled at, you know, masters of science and coaching psychology at the university of Sydney.
And I. I suppose the last thing to share here is that the reason that I'm here bringing you The Thriving Lawyer is because getting into the coaching world and Learning the skills has made such a big transformation in my own life, and particularly since the pandemic in Melbourne where I live. You know, I realized at that time that that's those structures that we took for granted in everyday life weren't necessarily necessary and that I could choose a different way.
And. really embrace creating a life, not just sort of finding myself in a life that I could choose and really thrive in. And I want to share everything that I've learned about that. So that's me, but I'm here with Carla. Now we did do a little bit of an intro podcast a year ago, but we promptly disappeared because we have been working hard on something that we'll tell you about later, but Carla, for those.
Audience, you know, those listeners who've not tuned in before or need a refresher. Are you able to introduce yourself?
Absolutely. Yeah.
Yeah. Thank you for your introduction, Kathleen. So I'm Carla Ferraz. I'm an executive coach. I'm certified with the International Coaching Federation. And I have been a coach for about 10 years now.
And my passion really lies in helping leaders. Especially lawyers, identifying these trends and align their lives with their values, you know, and gain clarity on what truly matters for them, for their professional and personal growth. You know, before stepping into the world of coaching I spent years in business development in the energy sector.
So working in different roles and it took me across, you know, different parts of the world. I lived and worked in the UK, Mexico, the U. S. Singapore, Brazil, and now in Australia. So I live on the Sunshine Coast. These experience has like really gave me some invaluable insights into different kinds of cultures and different types of leaderships as well.
And it's unique challenges, you know, my transition. into coaching started when I was in the corporate world myself. You know, I had the privilege of receiving coaching and it was truly transformative. It really helped me transition into a more fulfilling career, you know, that I have today. And what I really get to witness people going through their own incredible processes to enhance their lives.
You know, I love watching my client gain self awareness, you know, and making meaningful changes, you know, and the impact, the ripple across their teams, their families. and the organizations. It is like really, truly fascinating and I absolutely love what I do now. You know, I pinch myself every day that I have been able to create this life that I have today.
On the personal side, so I'm a wife, I'm a mom of two wonderful daughters. I live on the Sunshine Coast. As I said, it's a place that is full of beauty and You know, a lot of balance that I feel that I've created for myself. And for you lawyers that are here with us, we are super excited to share these stories, these strategies, all the things that we have learned in the past, you know, 10 years.
Yeah, to help you navigate the complexity of the legal profession and find and create that balance for yourself so you can truly thrive in your personal life. Oh, wow. Well, thank you, Carla. You know, I have to say that it's been amazing and I'm so glad, you know, we came across each other in a, in coach related training that we were both doing in 2020 and first you know, cemented our relationship through coaching exchanges and it was a way to such quickly gain trust and get to know each other.
And who would have thought back then that we would end up, you know, partnering in a company, which is where we're up to now. And what I am very excited to announce with you. So Carla and I have recently. Founded The Thriving Lawyer and part of that and probably the biggest aspect of that is that for the past year we have been working really hard.
It's been hundreds of hours of our time and effort, but has been so much fun and such a learning experience to create for you a course called The Thriving Lawyer. And What it's all about is the themes that we've, we've kind of already alluded to. It's all about helping lawyers create lives where they can thrive, not just as lawyers, but in the rest of their lives.
Too often, I think that the training that lawyers have got about that has been so only focused on performance, ignoring the rest of their lives. Ignoring the ultimate truth that to truly perform and to be great lawyers, we actually need thriving humans. I also, you know, also I think one of the challenges is that as lawyers, you've had these one hour wellbeing courses.
We will have all gone through them since the pandemic, where you sit there for an hour, you get your CPD point about how to be more well, and yes, they're good, they can be, but they're just not deep enough and they don't accompany you as the lawyer. In a really fundamental way to actually make the changes that you need in order to truly thrive.
So Carla, is there anything that you'd like to add to that right now? Yeah, absolutely. Has been a privilege to be working with you in the past in a year, just. creating the thriving lawyer. So over the past decade, like working as an executive coach for large companies in the world, I have had the privilege also to work with a lot of lawyers.
And, and I have seen that as a very clear need. The lawyers face unique pressures and demands, like, and, and there isn't anything out there that, you know, that it's. tailored to support specific lawyers. So when you came up with the idea of the thriving lawyer, like I felt, okay, yeah, this is the right place to be, you know, because you, you Kathleen, you deeply understand the legal profession from inside out, the culture, the challenges, as well as the opportunities.
you know, that can come with practicing law. So together we've created this program that shares so much of the strategies, you know, that really help lawyers thrive. And it's practical and impactful. And so hopefully, you know, we're here trying to create something that, you know, can hopefully even help with that change of what the industry where, you know, Everything is shifted in this moment, right?
And we wanted to be part of that shift. So, yeah, and yeah, it's been, it's been really, you know, we, we met in the first one of the many coaching courses that we've done in our lives. Again, we're here doing another one together, right? We're both Pursuing the Masters of Coaching Psychology at Sydney University to ensure that, you know, everything that we share is evidence based, you know, that it has been proved yeah, and it's been an amazing journey working with you.
So we're, I'm very excited to be able to share the strategies, stories, conversations, you know, that very tailored to the legal profession, our podcast and the course itself.
Yeah, that, that, thank you, Carla, that really resonates. I think in particular, the fact that what we're doing as well as sharing everything that we've learned is really in the relationship that you and I have.
We're committed like that, that learning and that curiosity and that growing. So it's not like we're sitting here just as the experts, you know, we have invested hugely. and done a lot of learning, but we are learning too and being able to share as we experiment and continue to grow, I think for me is one of the exciting things about this.
The other, the other part of it is, you know, when, when we think about what it is that we want lawyers to be able to take away and go, like, we've created this thriving lawyer because we want. You should be able to really reconnect with everything that is most important to you. What we find is well, I found in my experience as a lawyer over the years is it's really easy.
You climb the corporate ladder, you get those promotions. Perhaps you're in an area of law that you just happen to be in because that's what you specialized in in your first year. You were randomly put in that team or, you know, maybe you had a real sense of why you did law. But, you know, as you've gotten older, there's a whole lot of obligations.
So One of the things is we created an environment where you can have that kind of structured self reflection so that you can really think about what is most important to you and what is your strengths and really have that chance to vision, but then moving on from that, be able to create those goals that you can actually achieve.
Like a lot of the goal setting stuff that I've seen can be a really simplistic and it doesn't really invite lawyers. to connect with those things that are most important to you. So it's easy to set the wrong goals or to set goals in such a way that it's really hard to achieve. So that's one of the big focuses of what we've been doing, but then building even on that, like once you've got that big vision, you you've got those high level goals, being able to.
With this growth mindset, an ethic of experimentation, experiment with putting in the habits that you actually need to make those changes sustainable. Carla any, anything, anything from there that I've missed that you think that I need to add in?
Well, that was a beautiful summary of what it means to thrive and, and, you know, like, and, and all the things that we've shared in, in the course.
Yeah, if, if I could just add something else, like, you know, thriving. It doesn't just happen, right? Well, for some people might, but you know, when we, when we notice that we are not thriving, there are steps that we can take, you know, in order to create a thriving life in order to be able to, you know, to have more relationships, you know, that are meaningful to you, to have to look after yourself and your wellbeing, right?
To be able to, to find engagement and flow. So, and we are super excited to share with you everything that we have learned. So, yeah, it's, it. Okay. Well, maybe before we go into like what you can expect from us a bit more, I think, or what it means to thrive, you know, we've got a guide coming out soon called the lawyer's guide to thriving in 2025, a sustainable roadmap for success.
We'll put it out there. The links will be in the show notes. You can get it from our website. It's a great place to start it's a little bit of a teaser to see, you know, you'll get the a lot of real actionable steps that you can take now to begin to take, begin to thrive. And, you know, give you that little bit of anticipation for when we launch, we will be announcing a launch date very soon.
It is coming soon. We're just sort of settling the final thing so that it's ready. Yeah. You know, and in the meantime, you know, we'll be podcasting much more regularly now sharing basically our thoughts and ideas around this theme of The Thriving Lawyer. We'll be exploring all the facets of what it means to thrive, the things that get in our way and, and the whole purpose of it is basically to give you really practical ideas and tips to make you really think and be able to make immediate changes.
So that you don't have to wait for the course to, to start really looking at how you can create the thriving lawyer where you're in the driver's seat, basically, and not just kind of going along for the ride. Because what we see is, you know, really too many lawyers. are languishing. That, that seems to the, to be the reality.
You know, there's such expectations on our profession. You know, if you think about what it means to thrive both as a lawyer and in the rest of our lives, it's really a. Holistic picture, you know, what we're not, we're not saying that it means being happy all the time. We're not selling an unrealistic vision of a easy life where you don't have challenges.
You know, implementing this stuff can sometimes be really hard because it might mean doing things that are not fun in the short term, but are going to give you the long term benefits. But you know, when we think about. The last several years there's been, you know, it's an increasingly challenging global environment.
The pressure on lawyers hasn't decreased, if anything, in all of this craziness it's increased. Ever since the pandemic, I think there's been a bit of a reckoning where we're starting to look at how we can reconstruct and create legal careers, particularly with the onset of remote work that work better for people.
I worry at, at the moment that there are trends to kind of take back some of those advances. And I think, you know, when we think about creating an environment where we can thrive as lawyers. Despite this increasing emphasis on things like mental health and the cultures are beginning to shift, there really is such a long way to go.
You know, and I've want to share some statistics to really highlight that. Because I think they are really illustrative of. The degree to which this challenge in our profession is such a massive one. You know, a 2021 global study on mental well being in the legal profession was conducted by the International Bar Association.
And it found that one in three professionals surveyed said that their work had a negative impact on their well being. That's incredible. One third of people. It wasn't just that it was challenging, but that actually negatively affected their well being. The factors that were leading to the crisis in lawyer well being included the stressful and the intensive nature of the work, poor work life balance, and high levels of pressure.
And another important point, and I really want, if you're in a law firm and you're in management here, it's really important to take note. That if they are looking at what they can do to support their lawyers, this crisis of well being was not just a matter for lawyers as individuals. You know, there were cultural elements in this and that that lack of lawyer well being didn't just affect the individual lawyer.
reverberated through society. It impacted their firms as a whole. It impacted their clients and it impacted society more broadly. In another study in Australia in 2021, the law council of South Australia found that a career in law was among the two occupation that had the highest rates of mental illness.
47 percent of respondents said that the legal profession had a negative impact on their well being. And over the last two years, almost 60 percent of respondents have considered leaving the profession entirely. So again, there are even more dire statistics. And one that I just came across this week was the College of Law Australia Law Forward 2024 Legal Industry Satisfaction Survey.
Now it found that almost 70 percent of lawyers experienced burnout in the past year. And of those who experienced burnout, 60 percent were women. And interestingly, 48 percent were 18 to 29. So that tells you something, that women are disproportionately being affected in the legal profession, that the structures are not working for them, particularly if they have, you know, child rearing responsibilities, although at least the bit of the report that I read didn't go into that aspect.
But also the fact that it's young people. Young people are really experiencing that. So I think we've got to be thinking about those factors and identifying like what is going on in the legal profession. And certainly some of those changes, you know, if you're a law firm and you're looking to help your lawyers, something like the Thriving Lawyer can really.
be part of a cultural change. And it can also though crucially arm individual lawyers with the skills that they need and practices to really begin to thrive. It can't just be left up to those individuals. But the reality is that we as individual lawyers do have significant power in the way that we can create boundaries and set up practices and clarify what's important to us.
To then really be proactive in the way that we're showing up as lawyers. Before I kind of throw back to you, Carla, I just want to also add in one little qualifier, well, one big qualifier, actually, which is, I think it's really important that we're really clear from the beginning, you and I We're studying coaching psychology at the University of Sydney, where both accredited coaches with the ICF, but we are not psychologists.
So we are not in this course focused in addressing mental illness. So if you're in crisis or you think that you might be experiencing mental illness, such as depression or anxiety, it's really important that you do see your GP or psychologist. We did a really great podcast with Dr. Shiromi at Episodal.
Episode 11, where she gave a lot of real practical guidance about when to see a doctor and how to prepare. So I really recommend that you go back and listen to that if that would be helpful to you. So stepping back, you know, we're about helping lawyers thrive. It's not about addressing mental illness.
The point that we are fundamentally focused on addressing is the fact that Wellbeing is not simply the absence of mental illness, you know, there are some causes that are certainly cultural that I was getting to like the work hours billable hour targets, but there really are unique factors too about our legal profession that constitutes specific obstacles to flourishing and those things, the intensive workloads, low levels of control over our actual work because our work is so client driven.
Perfectionism, you know, so many lawyers have got to law school and then developed a legal career because they've been really good at school and then at university, they're academic, they want to do well, they're high performers, the unfortunate byproduct that can sometimes result in that is that This desire for everything to be absolutely perfect.
So we become our own worst enemies in being able to create that life where we can truly thrive. And another, you know, final part that we'll explore a bit is this idea of pessimism. You know, I think what is really unique about the legal profession is that we are one of the only professions, perhaps the only one, where we are trained.
through our university studies to be pessimistic. You don't want a Pollyanna ish lawyer who's giving, you know, very laissez faire legal advice about something. You want a lawyer to be really thoughtful and careful and Identify risks. And in fact, you know, a lot of our job is that identification of risk and then working out how to mitigate them in order to help our clients achieve what they need to achieve.
Now, that is really good when it's used in context, but it can be a bit of a disaster. And I know that I have done. Of myself at certain times in the past where I've misapplied that into my own personal life and become quite risk averse in kind of the changes. You know, it took me a long time, for example, when I was thinking about moving back from Canberra to Melbourne because I was feeling so risk averse because of that pessimism, which didn't provide me the space that I needed to really vision and think about what it was I wanted to create.
So, look, there's a lot there. Carla, I've just talked for a few minutes. I've covered a lot of ground there. But listening to what I've said, how does that resonate with you? And Maybe you could speak to your experience as a coach and what you've seen with lawyers that you've coached and other professionals too, who might experience the same kind of issues, but particularly lawyers.
Thank you.
So it resonates deeply, like what I've observed over the years coaching lawyers. and leaders in general, like, Oh, absolutely. I agree with what you started to say. Thriving does not mean being happy all the time, you know, or living a life that is challenging free. You know, it's, it's, it's more about becoming aware, create clarity.
Or what it truly matters to you, you know, so you can navigate your challenges with purpose and balance and creating access to become more resilient. The statistics that you just shared, like, you know, they are stark and they paint a picture of a profession that really demands so much about its people, right?
And. very often at a significant personal cost. So I've, I've coached many lawyers who feel stuck in this cycle of overwork, perfectionism, and, you know, like, like, lack of control over their schedules and unable to prioritize themselves. You know, and, and then these challenges compounded behind the culture expectations to always be on, you know, to approach.
Problems like you shared through the lenses of skepticism and pessimism, you know, you mentioned that these skills are rewarded in the legal profession, but they can spill into the personal life. And I can, can really take a toll at one's overall wellbeing, especially when you started neglecting, you know, your own, you know, physical health, physical and mental health.
Right. But, but at the same time, what I've, you know, I've been really inspiring in my coaching is really to witness how much power. Individuals have, you know, when they take the time, they create space in their lives to step back, you know, and take stock of their lives and their careers, you know, many lawyers that I have worked with, they've sort of started identifying, you know, what do I value?
What am I good at? You know, and often the, when they gain that clarity in what they want in their lives, you know, and it's not just professionally, like it's, it's their life as a whole, every aspect of it, from that, they can start beginning, you know, creating changes. And sometimes it's small ones, you know, that allow them to create a little bit of a more alignment and.
Gain more fulfillment, you know, it's one step at a time. And Kathleen, you touch on something there that is very, very important, like while the culture is shift, you know, within the, the, the firms and, and that is essential, right? We have to remember that we as individuals, we have more agency than we often realize.
I like for example, I've seen lawyers that like redefine success for themselves, you know, whether it's like by setting boundaries around the working hours, you know, or sometimes like you've done, like choose a different way of work or sometimes a different area of law or simply just like rethinking how they manage their day to day stress.
You know, what, what recovery systems would they put, they can put in place to help them bounce back, you know, create that access to become more resilient as well. You know, one of the most transformative aspects of, of coaching is helping people see the possibilities. You know, it's, it's about creating space for that to exist in your life, to reflect, to recover, and to grow.
So you can build like habits, mindset, tools that enable yourself to thrive, you know? And, and, and like you mentioned, and, and it's, we will be repeating this a lot here. It's not just as lawyers, it's as people, as human beings as well, you know? So yes, the challenges are real. The sta the statistics are sobering, but, you know, but I also see so much potential for change, you know, both it as an individual and a systemic level, you know?
And, and that's why we're. so passionate about the Thriving Lawyer course, right? We really want to be part of this shift, you know, offering insights, strategies to really empower lawyers to, you know, take back control of their well being. And it's one step at a time, you know, it's not a drastic change. And Kathleen, like you've made Such big changes in your life since the pandemic, right?
You've moved, you moved firms, you moved, you know, places. And, and I can, I can see like you're truly thriving at this point in time. So I would love to hear, like, could you share with, with our audience a little bit more about what led you to those changes and what are some of the key realizations or steps that you took to get where you are today?
Yeah, look, it's, it's interesting, you know, I did the coach training first in 2019, but my experience of this work actually goes back a bit earlier. So I discovered the potential of all of this way back, I think it would have been in 2016 when I. I had been living in Canberra for many years, like about eight, over eight years, coming up to nine.
And I was really ready to return to Melbourne and I wanted to change jobs to find something new that worked. And I was experiencing. What is fair to say was quite a bit of fear and uncertainty about what opportunities were available and how I would go about that. I was, you know, I was, I had been in a very secure Commonwealth legal job, which provided me so much.
Like I loved most a lot of my time there, but I was really ready to come back. You know, I'm. from Melbourne. I'm a Melbourne girl. My family are down here. My older friends down here a whole lot of my Canberra friends that all kind of headed down, but I just didn't know how to make the change happen and was sort of feeling like I was stuck in this cycle.
And one of my former colleagues was a coach and he was just starting up. He'd been a very senior lawyer, an executive lawyer, and he was. Hanging up his hat as a coach and I think I might have even been his first client looking for it. And that experience of doing coaching with him really opened my eyes to the possibilities.
And what was most transformative to me is he took me right. Back to the beginning, which is what I do with my clients and I know that you do as well and in the thriving lawyer we focus on that of taking us back to like, what is actually important to you? What is it that you really want? What are the values that you want to be living in accordance with?
What does success look like? And What became possible then was that I was able to think about, reflect on, and articulate a very clear vision for myself of what a successful life looked like as a lawyer. I was able to then, like, what made possible was then I was able to really understand what it is I was looking for a job.
So before that, I'd kind of, you know, I'd put out some feelers and just applied for some jobs as they came up. But once I'd had that reflection, it was really different. Because now I was in charge. So there were a whole lot of jobs that came up that I was like straight away, no, I'm not interested. I don't want that because that's not consistent with who I want to be as a lawyer or what I'm interested in the areas or, or how I see myself working.
That was my initial taster and that was sort of the beginning, but it's not like I got this grand sense of meaning and purpose, right? This was really incremental. And I think that's another thing that lawyers should really be aware of is that sometimes people get overwhelmed by that and thinking they have to have all the answers at once.
But, but that experience kind of just broke open the door. And, you know, within a, within a couple of months of that. I think it was, you know, from the time I began coaching in six months, I was in Melbourne with the new life the new job and couldn't believe what I'd just done and how happy I was so that, you know, that, that was an initial break door.
But of course, these things move on. And over time you know, I did a manager's coach course. And that I, like, was about learning coaching skills so that I could use them at work. But again, it opened more doors because as I was learning how to do those skills, inevitably I applied them on myself and got so excited that as I did the coach, you know, I went to Canada and did the coach training.
And then during the pandemic with the lockdowns, they were particularly harsh in Melbourne, as many of you will have experienced. And so that gave me that opportunity and probably really got me through the pandemic in a time when I had, you know, I think of the time we had those five kilometer zones and I didn't have friends or family.
I had one lovely neighbor who was my dear friend. But in that moment of aloneness in a physical sense, this work really helped me again tap into those things. What is it that was important to me? What is it that I wanted to create given the limitations of the life at the time? How could I do that? And I started to make changes again.
And I think it's constant and I return to this work. It's not like it's ever done. But if I think back in 2020 I was working in the state government. I had a you know, principal lawyer job. I was managing a team. There were great opportunities in that. But as I was wanting to increase and kind of focus on other interests, which is this body of work, this coaching, I realized that I needed something different.
So for me, what I have done since that time, and it is only because of things like the coaching exchanges that I did with you and others, the reflection that. I ended up realizing that I had to make significant changes yet again. And so when I look back now, you know, I have now for, I think coming on three years, seen work for Lawyer Bank, a new model law firm where I can work part time.
I'm seconded into a government law legal department. I'm able to do fantastic legal work. I love working with the Commonwealth, but I have much more flexibility that part time. has provided me the opportunity to work with you and do this work and to go to uni. And also, you know, things like my physical health, you know, at the moment, you know, the other day, I think about just as an example I did my work and because I'm remote working, I was able to immediately go to the gym and then do a yin yoga class.
I did that three times this week, that double session. And you know, that, that has a massive impact on my wellbeing too. So look, this work is evidence based, it works and it's made that significant difference in my life.
Oh, what a beautiful story, Kathleen. And I love to hear, like, how coaching helped you gain the clarity on what you truly wanted for your career, right?
And the process, like, it was a step by step, by reflecting, by defining your values, by creating that vision for success, and then going one step at a time to, you know, with the incremental change to, to really, truly, you know, thrive where you are today. You know, it's beautiful. And I loved what you shared as well, like sometimes prioritize your physical health, you know, put you in a state where you are able to even start seeing like, what do I want?
Like we have to start with, with us, right? Cause it's, it's a, it's a really great place to, to You know, how do we take care of ourselves so we can go and take care of others, especially in a profession, which it is about serving others. Right. So yeah, inspiring, really inspiring. Thank you for sharing this story.
I'll say, look, thank you. I think, you know, just to kind of finish that aspect of the conversation. The one thing I really want to emphasize there is that the great thing about engaging with. This work about thriving is that you, you learn skills that you carry forward. And that's one of the key things that I wanted our lawyers who do the thriving lawyer course to walk away with is not just having made changes when they finished the course right now, but to have really gained skills.
and techniques that they can take forward in the rest of their life. Because things will change, we have kids, they grow up, we have different desires from our career at different times, and, you know, we can come back to this body of work time and time again and what we've learnt as, as we need to, Carl.
So, okay, well, with that You know, we've talked a lot about our own experiences, the issues in the legal profession more broadly, but Carla, if I ask you to think about these concepts of thriving and to introduce a new concept we haven't talked about much today so far, languishing, how would you define what we actually mean when we're talking about what it means to thrive versus languish?
Sure. So thriving means flourish. It's living a life filled with vitality, where you are functioning well across different areas of your life, right? It isn't about being happy all the time or just avoiding challenges, like in fact, Often, you know, involves doing really hard things when you do gain clarity, what is important.
Usually you make decisions, right? Like there might not be pleasure, but in the moment, but it leads to a deeper sense of meaning and fulfillment over time, right? So in positive psychology, there is a really helpful framework that helps us understand what thriving means. So it's the PERMA model, right? So P goes for positive emotions, E is for engagement, like having flow in your life.
R for relationships, you know, M's for meaning and purpose, like, and A's for accomplishment, and H is often added to the perm model, which means health. Like, so when we experience these elements in our lives, especially when we start prioritizing our physical health, we can really truly thrive, you know.
So it's, what is powerful about this though, it's recognizing that thriving isn't a fixed state, you know, it's a process. You know, as, as you shared in your story, it's like you move towards it by taking deliberate actions, you know, to align your life to what matters to you, to your values, right? Improving your wellbeing and addressing the roadblocks that will appear that hold you back sometimes, you know, and I think for me, like the big question is like, what we've been, you know, talking recently as well, is the briefness of life, you know, what do you really want?
Do you want just to get by or do you want to really create a life where you are fully engaged and fulfilled? And that's what thriving is all about.
Yeah, it's not one and done. It's a verb, isn't it, Carla? It's this constant state of doing. But that said, you know, through action we can thrive. And that doesn't mean that things like global pandemics or accidents or, you know, we, we, there's a certain unpredictability to life that we, we can't control.
It's just beyond what we can control. And so those things like being locked up in your house in Melbourne and not being able to leave five kilometers for a daily walk, you know, that can really affect your thriving in a particular moment, but that doesn't mean that you still don't have power. You know, you've, you've just reminded me of one of the most significant books I've Viktor Frankl's Man's Search for Meaning, you know, and even in the concentration camps.
It's in World War II as a Jewish man where everything was taken from him and death was everywhere. And there was a lot of dumb luck as to whether he survived or not. There was still something that he could control in terms of the way that he reacted and showed up. Now, you can't say that he was able to thrive in that environment, certainly not, but it goes back to that agency that we have.
in order to choose our own behavior and action. And so for us in a, in our normal lives too, I think there's an important lesson there. Do you agree? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. So, okay. So, so all of that, you know clearly. It's a very holistic concepts. It's about living with this vitality that you've talked about.
One of the things that I think might affect lawyers is this sense of busyness, right? They get so caught up in their work. We're so busy. We've got to get that advice done. It might be urgent or if we're. A barrister, we might have a court that we're preparing for a big trial or a big case. It's not easy.
We've just got to get that stuff done. We've got duties to our clients. So there might have to be in the moment long hours that, that are in a sense, sometimes unavoidable. And a lawyer might come and say, well, that's all very well, Carla and Kathleen, all this talk about thriving, but you don't understand what it's like for me.
I've got this trial or constant cases or advices that are urgent. And so I'm just too busy for this. You know, I'm too busy for my well being. And what will happen is they think that and then they somehow believe that if they focus on their well being, what will happen is that they will perform less well because they're taking time away from their desk, away from their work.
And this will be especially true if they're working those excessive hours and other parts of their life have been neglected. So, you know, some of the things that I've heard lawyers talk about are often really ingrained. And in my view, unhelpful beliefs and mindsets that are really common, such as, well, I just don't have time to focus on my wellbeing.
It would be just something that's extra to do on my to do list. Or, this is a big one, this is just how the profession is. It's part of the reality of being a lawyer. Or high stress is part of the job. Or I'm fine. Other parts, you know, others have it worse. Carla, what would you say to a lawyer who has those objections?
Well, Kathleen, like you are absolutely right. Like those objectives are common, you know, and I have heard them countless times in my coaching. And look, and they, they reflected like a deeply ingrained belief about what it means to be a lawyer, like the culture of the profession, the pressures that many lawyers face.
Like, but like, let me, let me try here like a different perspective, right? First, the idea that I don't have time to focus on my wellbeing. often stems from a mindset that sees well being separate from performance or success. Like, and the truth is, like, it's not separate, like, it's deeply intertwined. And there's so much research now, you know, consistently, consistently showing that when people prioritize their mental and physical health, they perform better, not worse.
You know, I've never heard someone like, I'm taking care of my well being and my performance is, was at work, like, so they're more focused, they're more productive, more efficient, you know, and not only better equipped to handle distress, you know, but they're also like better, you know, overall in their relationships and their personal life as well.
Obviously, you know, it's not that simple. It requires, you know, taking steps. It requires reorganizing, rethinking how you're doing things, right? But neglecting well being, you know, like when you're running on empty, it's definitely not sustainable. Like, anybody that is there will see it, like second, like, the belief that this is just the profession, you know, the stress is part of the job, that that's a self fulfilling prophecy.
Like, yes, the legal profession is very demanding, you know, and there will always be some sort of stress. You know, like you're doing things that haven't, you know, a lot of the times that you haven't done before. But high stress doesn't mean to be constant burnout or sacrificing your personal life. You know, many lawyers now are finding ways like yourself to work smarter, to set boundaries, to integrate well being into their professional lives, right?
The profession is changing, you know, slowly, yes, but you know, but it is changing. So it is. possible to be a part of that change as well. You know lawyers like are trained to downplay their own needs a lot of the times, you know, and focus on serving others. But that, but that ignoring your own well being, it doesn't help anyone.
It doesn't help in your clients. It doesn't help in yourself. It doesn't happen in your, you know, your families. And, and if you're barely coping your performance and relationships, a lot of the time we'll suffer as well, you know, so a thriving lawyer, it's a better lawyer, so it's more focused, more resilient, you know, and, and.
able to provide a higher quality service. You know, for those with working excessive hours and feeling that they're, you know, too far gone to make any changes, I would say start small. You know, well being doesn't have to be another item on your to do list. You know, you can you know, it can be as simple as taking like five minutes.
To, you know, for a break, to breathe, to just step outside, to go for a quick walk around the block, you know, or even just, you know, committing to one evening a week where you can log off on time, you know, so like these small changes can have a ripple effect, you know, and make a big difference. you know, over time.
So, so like, I would say that like, it's about recognizing that prioritizing your well being isn't about being selfish or optional. Like, it's essential, right? It's, it's about enabling you to sustain a successful career. And, at the same time, live a fulfilling life. You know, if we're honest with ourselves, like, you know, this is, we all want that, right?
But it takes, you know, we need to stop and reflect, and ask yourself, you have the answers. You just have to ask the questions. What do I want? You know?
That's really powerful. What I particularly like there about what you said is that you didn't just focus on the big grand things. Cause it's not, you know, it can be like when I was talking about the changes that I'd made in my own life over the last few years. And yes, you know, I've changed the jobs, the way I work, gone to part time left my public service career and become, you know, working for a firm. And it's all very different. So it's very kind of a very bespoke kind of legal career. But on the other hand, there's a whole lot of little things that I did along the way that made a significant impact, you know, if I think about when I was working in the during the pandemic before some of these more recent changes have occurred for me, one of the little things that made a huge difference to me was when I did this what's called a VIA strengths assessment, which is part of positive psychology, and we'll talk about it more in the future. But what that had showed is that one of my key kind of strengths was an appreciation for beauty and excellence.
And once I understood that and applied it, like during the pandemic, that became a really important way for me to. improve my wellbeing and, you know, within that context thrive as much as I could because I was able to do things like when I went for a walk, take that time to appreciate the beautiful gardens and nature in my environment.
I couldn't go to the physical theater, but I could watch some theater, but which I love online and sort of get that little fix then. And those things for me, you know, created that richer life and were those small little things that made a difference. So, so Carla, like maybe moving on from that, you know, we've talked a lot about what it is means to thrive the obstacles and objections that we might get from lawyers and why they, they really don't stack up in terms of prioritizing this thriving lawyer.
Let's turn to the, the more negative side. You know, we, we don't want to be languishing, but how might a lawyer know that that's perhaps where they are? What might be some of the signs?
Sure. So languishing is a state where you're not necessarily burnt out or struggling with mental illness, but you're also not thriving.
It's a sense of stagnation. disconnection, like the lack of vitality. You know, so there's a few red flags there, like, like that sort of success is, is equals of being busy all the time. So when you measure your worth by how busy you are, or you wear that packed schedule, like a badge of honor, It might be a suck that a sign that you are stuck in that sort of culture of overworking rather than truly thriving.
You know constantly working late evenings and weekends. Like your work has sort of like encroaching into every part of your life. You know, there's no room for rest or other priorities. That's a very common like red flag there, right? You lost a sense of spark. Like, you know, when you think back, why you chose law in the first place, if that initial passion feels like such a distant memory, you know, it could mean that you're feeling disconnected from, from your meaning and purpose that once energized you.
Right. Like neglecting your self care. Like we've been talking so much here about wellbeing. Like if self care is always the first thing that you let go when work gets really busy. You might be in that cycle of putting yourself last, and then usually that comes with persistent fatigue, right? You're always tired, you know, like you can't even, you know, coffee doesn't even help anymore.
That could be a sign that your body and mind is, like, running on empty, you know. So, like, basically it's a sort of lack of energy, excitement, like you can't remember the last time that you actually really feel energized by your job or, you know, or rewarded by it. So you're feeling stuck in that, in that cycle, like, you know, it's like the hamster wheel kind of thing.
Like you're always moving. But you're never getting anywhere. So you're barely managing to stay afloat, right? Like I think Adam Grant, like a organizational psychologist he mentioned that feeling of meh, like it's meh, you're just doing, you know, you're just going through the motions without that joy and fulfillment, that's a clear indicator, like that you could be languishing.
Wow. That is. so true and it resonates so deeply, you know, as someone who's been a lawyer for many years, I think, you know, I've seen this so many times. I think we've all been there ourselves, or if we haven't personally, we've seen our lawyer friends and colleagues who have reached that point. You know, I really encourage if, if you think that you're languishing, really take the time to reflect and engage with this work and see where you can begin to even take one little tiny step, because the key point that we want to make through our work in The Thriving Lawyer is that languishing, you know, it's absolutely not a necessary part of being a lawyer.
It shouldn't be seen as just part of being, you know, the reality of our profession, that the stresses are such that that's the reality. This is just unacceptable for a profession that has such a deep impact on society. Lawyers are really important. And, you know, maybe we don't have, hold people's lives in our hands in the way that doctors do, certainly.
But, you know, so much of the work that we do matters. And if we're not thriving, the impacts go way beyond just ourselves and those in our lives. But, you know, the impacts are incredible. So. Don't accept that. If that is, if that has become your normal, don't accept it as your normal. There absolutely is a path to move from languishing to flourishing and It begins with recognizing those signs and making the decision that you are ready for change.
So Carla, anything to kind of add to that, or is there anything that you'd say differently or that you think I've missed?
No, I think you summarize it beautifully. Like, you know, like just to, to go back to, to the, you know, Definition of thriving, like it's, you know, go back to like, what, what energize you about your work?
You know, how can you feel like that sense of deeper purpose beyond the billables, right? So what, what goals would you like to achieve that really matters to you? You know, how do you look after yourself? How do you start making your wellbeing like non negotiable so you can really like feel energized, engaged, connecting to the meaning of your work, you know, and finding the balance, you know, like reconnecting with your purpose, the people that mattered in your life, you know yeah, and, and start creating a life that, you know, you've, that is fulfillment and aligned to your values, you know?
Well, thank you. I think Carla, that is a beautiful spot to close off this episode. I just like to say, you know, we are
both so happy to be back here on the podcasting airwaves. You'll be hearing a lot more from us through all things, the thriving lawyer.
We'd love to hear your feedback follow us on socials. And a reminder that you can download our free guide to the Lawyer's Guide to Thriving in 2025, A Sustainable Roadmap for Success. It's a really handy, you know, practical guide for you. Particularly at this point right now where we're starting 2025.
A lot of us are just coming back to work, if we haven't already. Or you might still be on holidays. Lucky you. So. And it's a great time to begin to reflect about all of these things. So thank you so much. And until next time. Yeah. Thank you, Kathleen.
