Season 2, Episode 4 Final podcast - fully edited 4 March
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You are listening to The Thriving Lawyer with Kathleen Brenner and Carla Ferraz. I'm Kathleen, a highly experienced lawyer and an International Coaching Federation accredited coach.
And I am Carla. Like Kathleen, I am an ICF certified coach and I have worked with top leaders and professionals, many of them lawyers, at some of the world's biggest organizations.
My focus is on using evidence based approaches to help my clients thrive at work and in the rest of their lives. Together,
we bring you the Thriving Lawyer podcast, a podcast filled with ideas and inspiration, as well as practical tips to help you thrive as a lawyer and in the rest of your
life. Let's get into it.
Welcome to episode four of Season two of the Thriving Lawyer with Kathleen Brenner and Carla Ferraz. It's great to be back with you for another episode, and today we are going to be talking about something that we think can be really practical for lawyers. Basically, we're going to explore insights from positive psychology, and in particular a really foundational model called the Perma Model, which is a model for wellbeing.
Now, this is something that we can easily apply in our own lives, but before we get into that, Carla, welcome. Hello. How are you today? What's been going on in your world?
Thank you, Kathleen. This week I have been focusing on creating more space for social interactions, both meeting friends here where I live locally, but also trying to call my friends abroad.
I've lived in different parts of the world and I've been lucky to make friends in in different countries, but it's really hard to reach out due to time zones and a life that is full of commitments. So it's very easy to forget to nurture those connections. So I have been more intentional about creating space to connect with people both personally and professionally.
And this has been the my own work within the Perma F framework that we are going to discuss today. So I'm working particularly in this area of relationships and creating space to connect more.
Yes, I know for a fact that you've got a lot going on in terms of work. So in terms of that achievement part, which is another area we're talking about, what I'm hearing there is that you're having to counteract that by focusing on the relationships.
Is that right?
That's right. Yeah, absolutely. What about you? What have you been up to, Kathleen?
Okay. I am also very much focused, possibly more than I, um, often am on that achievement. I've got a lot of got going on between my lawyering, all the work that we're doing at the Thriving Lawyer. It's a lot and it's taking a lot of energy.
So what I'm finding is I'm really having to be super proactive to manage that. It's hot down here in Melbourne this week. So I've been taking the time to really experiment this week. What are the routines that are gonna support me doing things like changing up the days and the times that I'm going to the gym and doing yoga.
A little sneaking in little lunchtime walks, so to make sure I get away from the desk. 'cause I'm really conscious of the fact that if I don't do it sustainably, I'll end up just getting too exhausted to do anything and that's not gonna serve me or any, anyone else. So it's really timely. I think that we are exploring this topic today because it is front of mind.
But I also wanna emphasize about how once you know this framework, it is really practical. 'cause you can look at the different parts of your life and explore where is it that I need to put my attention to. So that's something that will come back to as we go through this episode. So with that, as I said earlier, this is a really foundational wellbeing model in positive psychology that we're going to talk about.
And it has been a game changer for me for those reasons that I have been able to pay particular attention to areas of my life. And I really wanna share this because I think that lawyers, once they're aware of it. Can use it in that really practical way. But before Carla, I turn to you, I just wanna make clear a little disclaimer, which is you and I are coming to this not as psychologists.
We're not trained psychologists, but we are trained coaches. Okay. And the experience that we have is learning about these foundational positive psychology ideas and learning about them in terms of how we can apply them in a coaching context for the purposes of wellbeing. Carla, is that how you understand it?
And is there anything that you'd like to add on that?
Yeah, absolutely. So it's applied positive psychology, um, that we are bringing to you, like using in a coaching aspect. We're not clinical psychologists, we're non-mental health specialists. So it's very different, right? So how do we use those concepts and apply to flourish, to thrive in your, yeah.
So it's really about if you are well or you are, you're not depressed, you're not suffering from anxiety or any of those things. Or if you are, you've seen your doctor or another mental health professional for that. This is different. This is about actually enriching your life and doing even better so that you can thrive.
So pos, positive psychology as a field emerged in the late nineties, early two thousands, where Marty Seligman renowned psychologist, um, introduce, um, this term during his, he was the president of the American Psychological Association and he wanted to shift the focus of psychology. 'cause up to that point, much of psychology had been centered around the understanding and treating mental health.
So essentially, how do we move people from the state of dysfunctioning to a baseline of functioning? Seldman and another psychologist, Miha Chi Miha got together and he asked an important questions. So what happens after we've reached that baseline? How do people move beyond just okay to truly flourishing to thrive?
This new perspective thought to compliment, not to replace the traditional focus on mental health by studying factors that leading human to happiness, resilience, and peak performance. So although positive psychologists became more formalized in, in the late nineties and early 2000 roots goes back even farther than that.
Like philosophers, like Aristotles talked about the imo, the idea. Of living a life of meaning and purpose. There was also the humanistic psychologists like Abraham Maslow and Cole called Rogers, who explore the concepts of self-actualization and the human potential in the mid 20th century. So positive psychology built on those ideas and took them farther, like by grounding them in scientific research.
So as a definition, positive psychology is the scientific study like of what matters to make life worth living. We focus on strengths, resources, and practices that helps, that help individuals and communities to flourish. Not just addressing the problems, but also enhancing what is already good. Like, one way to to think about this is like using the metaphor of a house.
Like so you can think of building a house, traditional psychology, focus on fixing the cracks. As in the foundation we within what is critical, but positive psychology is about designing the house itself. Like it's choosing the things that will make it a place that you want to live, that you want to thrive in and feel good about it every day.
Another important thing to remember is that positive psychology isn't about a feel good concept. It's a research backed field that draws on ideas and experiment to understand how people flourish. Like the idea is to identify and cultivate factors that lead to higher level of resilience, happiness, and success.
It's not about I'm happy all the time or ignoring the challenges in your life, right? It then that couldn't be farther from the truth. Actually, positive psychology recognize their life is full of a ups and downs, and that meaningful growth actually happens when we do face our diversity. Like when we grow from the challenges.
So it's about creating tools and practices that will help you navigate those challenges when cultivating joy, connections, purpose. So it's not about being happy, it's about like, how do I use those concepts to help me thrive within the challenges that I have in my own reality? And Kathleen, how do you think this might be of use for lawyers?
Yeah, thanks Carla. There's so much in the ads that you just gave. And what really stands out to me is that this is really about not pretending that everything's positive or easy, it's actually engaging with life as it is, but using scientific concepts in order to really increase that level of flourishing.
And for lawyers that couldn't be more relevant. In recent episodes of this podcast, we've talked about some of the challenges that lead to lawyers Lan wishing the obstacles that are in our way for that. It's a demanding profession. It can be really hard on our wellbeing. There's often a lot of pressure, a lot of stress.
Sometimes our work can be really high stakes. It matters. And so I think for lawyers, it can be really easy to just fall into this trap of thinking, my wellbeing is a luxury. I'm just too busy for it. I've just gotta get my work done. And so the tools of positive psychology when applied in a really practical coaching con, um, context, are so powerful because we're, we are better able to deal with that stress.
The pressures of the profession, we're able to apply techniques and ideas in order to help us better flourish, and it can be really practical. So overall, it's one tool of a number that we will talk about and that we explore in the thriving lawyer that can make a real impact on the lives of lawyers. And I can just think about my own experience here.
You gave a good one at the beginning about how you are particularly focusing on relationships this week. And I talked about how the pressures that I'm having and having to do, achieve the things that I do in a sustainable manner, which actually means I have to focus on other areas. We haven't gone through the elements of Perma yet, but we have mentioned achievement and relationships.
Positive emotions is another one. Definitely at this time in my life, I, I am in a season where we're about to launch the Thriving Lawyer in terms of the, our signature course. There's a lot going on there. So if I don't pay attention to where are the gaps, then I could find myself in trouble pretty quickly.
So the way I used to, is there an area of my life that I need to pay particular attention to, which might make a outsize difference in my wellbeing at the moment? And, you know, at the moment, it's the, the little extra H that we'll talk about in a moment. It's often added to perma, but also those positive emotions in the relationship because it's about being collected for me.
But Carla, we've assumed a little bit of knowledge here around Perma, and we haven't given our key definitions. We've talked about positive psychology, we're now moving to talk about perma, which is this foundational idea. It's not the only framework of wellbeing in positive psychology, but it's a very influential one.
Can you tell us a little bit more about that for the lawyers that have not heard about it?
Yeah, sure. So PERM is an acronym that it stands for positive emotions, E for engagement, A for relationship, M for meaning, and A for accomplishment. And later it was added the H for health, right? So it, it's like you said, one of the most influential contributions from of positive psychologists, right?
Because it's a framework that helps us, we can think about it like a, a roadmap for flourishing and thriving. In each element plays a critical role in helping us live a balance and fulfilled life. Like, so the idea is that how can we bring more intentionality and create and focus on those elements and we, all of us, there is one area that we focus more than the other, but the how do we bring more balance so we can flourish personally and professionally?
I'll give you like a brief definition of which one of them before we started exploring them individually. So positive emotions are about experiencing moments of joy, gratitude, serenity, and contentment. They are, they aren't about being happy all the time. Like we mentioned before, we ignoring life challenges in lawyers, that's particularly not realistic.
We know, so positive emotions are, are powerful because they broaden our perspective, like they enhance creativity. They help us recover from stress. Then we have engagement. Like engagement refers to. Those moments that we are completely absorbed in what we are doing. The sense of time disappears. Like it's, it's called like being in the zone.
Like we are deeply focused in what we are doing. So engagement isn't just about working harder though. It's about aligning your strengths with the tasks that you are doing. Like it's finding that, like what is your unique way of using your skills in ways that challenges and fulfills you? Like there's far more, it's far more likely to, for you to stay energized and motivated if you become aware of how you're using the concept of engagement, which is usually referred to as flow.
As well in psychologists and then the are for relationships like what we are just started talking, which is the cornerstone of wellbeing. As human beings, we thrive on connections, and that's particularly important for lawyers, right? Because sometimes it's not just building, um, strong professional network work, but it's also nurturing personal relationships as well that bring you joy, trust, and a sort of emotional support, meaning atmosphere meaning, so meaning is about connection with a purpose bigger than yourself in the legal profession.
This could mean justice, protecting the vulnerable, supporting clients in difficult situation, achievement or accomplishment. It's about us setting and achieving goals. It's about striving for progress. We have to be careful with that in, in the legal profession, like we mentioned in the other podcasts because there is a tendency that can be leading to perfectionism and then.
The ages for health, both physical and mental health, which is the foundation of all the other elements of permanent. We doubt it. It's almost impossible to sustain a positive emotions, the meaningful relationships, the engagement in your work. Right? And and for lawyers, this means paying attention to stress management, sleep, how you move, and even thinking about small recovery practices, taking small breaks throughout the day.
So Kaly, would you be able to share a little bit about, specifically for lawyers, why do you believe perma is important?
I think you've summed it up so beautifully already. I loved that example that you gave about accomplishment and achievement where lawyers. High, high achievers, generally by nature, really demanding career.
I think this is, um, a little bit of an intuitive erection. We'd expect lawyers who are so accomplishment focused that there would be that overreliance potentially. Now, that's to say it's not really important and all legitimate, that is a source of meaning. If that's you and you take pride and your achievements and accomplishments are really important to you, that's wonderful and you should be proud of that.
But it's about being aware of. Are there other parts of your life that you are neglecting that you really need to focus on? And the other point I just wanna make is you, you, you talked a little bit about balance, and I just wanna be really clear about how I see that applying. It's not balanced necessarily in the moment.
There might be seasons of your life where you are really focused on a particular area. A lot of high performers, if you look at their lives at one moment, it might not look very balanced, but when you step back and you see their life as a whole. It absolutely does because there's different seasons for different aspects.
Nevertheless, though, if you're in a particular, um, stressful moment and it's all work, if you use the perma modeled, you might be able to go, okay, what is it that I'm missing out right now that if I just focused on it would increase my level of wellbeing or thriving? How do I increase that happiness or what sense of thriving in the moment?
And a great example might simply be, okay, you are really busy. You've got a lot of pressure. Maybe you've not talked to any of your friends for a week, right? That you need to make the time or you need to make time for a date night with your partner, or something really simple. It might just be that there needs to be a bit of focus in one of those other areas.
Or it could be something like meaning that you, perhaps you've not in touch, that sense of meaning anymore that you got from your legal work. I think this is a big one for lawyers because so often we are justice oriented. We go into law often because we have big ideas about the impact that we can have.
And as we get older and more senior in our career, doesn't always work out that way, or even if we are making a difference or we might have lost that sense of meaning. So I think it can be relevant in a huge amount of ways. So if we consider each of the perma elements in turn, now let's look at positive emotions, positive emotions.
Carla just gave that definition about all those characteristics such as joy and happiness, feeling good in in the moment. And this is really important in the legal profession too, when we are so busy carving out those moments when we've got the high stakes pressure. Or practical tools, and it might not be that you can do it right in that moment, but that you set aside the time later to do something that you know that you're going to enjoy.
So Carla, I'm really curious from your perspective, explain a little bit more if you like, around positive emotions, if you think I've missed something, but how could a lawyer potentially take steps to create that space to foster more positive emotions?
It's a few practical strategies, like to cultivate positive emotions that lawyers can use.
The first one that comes to mind is about creating space for joy in your life. One simple way to invite more positive emotions is to go and say, what genuinely leaves me? What, what do I like doing? For example, maybe it is taking a few minutes, um, after meeting to call someone that you really enjoy talking to.
Maybe it is, listen to your favorite song. Maybe it's stepping outside. These is more moments can really make a big difference. Another, um, practice is gratitude. Gratitude is one of the most powerful tools for cultivating positive emotions. Like research shows that writing down three things that you're grateful for each day.
Even a small things like, like having a supportive colleague or a successful argument or can really improve mood and resilience, especially counterbalance the negative bias that we all have. The ratio, like the science says, is three to one. So it takes three positive emotions to counterbalance one negative.
So the pra the gratitude practice, the more you start a practicing seeing the positive more you see the the positive in other aspects of your lives as well. Another tool here, it's like taking mindful breaks when incorporating mindfulness practices to your everyday life, even if it's just a few breathing exercise or a short walk.
Or even just stepping outside between meetings. This can be especially helpful in managing those high stakes pressure. Like especially when you're task switching, going from one thing to the other, just being more mindful just to stop. And it can be just for two minutes. Yeah. And then, and then bringing back to what we said before, it isn't about being happening all the time, but it's about intentionally creating space for more positive emotions in your life.
And it is, it's practice, isn. That's how we get there. Yeah. So how do you think this relates to lawyers, Kathleen?
I think the key lesson there is I can just see a lot of lawyers in my life kind of being skeptical about this. They'll put their skeptical, pessimistic hats on. But I like the way that you've rebutted them.
It's not about being happy all the time. It's not toxic. PO positivity. This idea that we should somehow be pollyannaish about everything. Lawyers, we do have a serious job in identifying risk. We may, in fact we will need to put in a even negative and skeptical hats on to do good legal work. But I think the key point is about being deliberate about the mindset that you bring.
So not letting it spill over that pessimism and negativity and skepticism to the rest of your life. We talked a lot about those obstacles to lawyer wellbeing in the previous episode. What I like about what you've said is that we can take the choice and do really simple, powerful things to take those moments, to give ourselves the opportunity to foster and create a habit of those positive emotions.
And that gratitude example is such a powerful one, but can seem a bit, we were a bit kind of naaf, right? Particularly to our loyal audience. Such a simple thing can begin to change the way that we view what's going around us, because we actually, it's about noticing, it's about being mindful, it's about noticing those things, and particularly in this global environment, which is full of so much craziness at the moment, I think it even becomes more important with all of that cultural noise, whether it's the news or whatever else, to go back to basics, to have that gratitude, to take those mindful breaks, to reframe those negative emotions.
Not deny them, but pairing them with those positive moments can have an impact. Yeah, absolutely.
Okay, so shall we tap a little bit into the second element, which is the engagement?
Sure. Tell our audience what this means in a bit more detail, because I know this is one of your favorite things, Carl.
Oh, absolutely.
Yeah. So engagement is, it's about flow and flow is the state of deep focus and immersion in the now time seems to disappear. You feel both challenged but capable like it. It's often referred to being as in the zone like, and research shows that people in flow, they can accomplish more in less time. They feel a great sense of satisfaction and they experience less mental fatigue.
And the term flow was coined by a psychologist, Miha Chi Miha, and he explained it. It of course, at the level of challenge in the task matches the level of skill. So the skill, challenge, balance. And if the task is too difficult, you feel anxious, overwhelmed. If the task is too easy, you feel bored. So the sweet spot, it lies in finding the tasks that push you just enough without feeling overwhelmed.
For lawyers, this might seem like tackling a complex legal argument, but they requires focus and analysis or drafting a challenging brief that allows them to flex their creativity and the intellectual muscles. So how, how Kathleen, when we think about the barriers for flow in the legal professional, what are some of the things that that comes to mind?
Oh, Carlos, so much. And this is not something that I have mastered. I am still working on this because the environment is so challenging. When I think about my own work, I work remotely part-time as a lawyer. And in that time I at work with fabulous people at the moment, and I get great work often. The The challenge is that there's meetings, there's teams, there's emails coming through, there's calls in that environment.
It can be really challenging to be able to get into that deep focus and not have those distractions. Often I'll just get into something and then something will happen that I need to respond to, and it really breaks my flow. So this is something that I've been experimenting with and we've actually been having conversations in the team that I work with.
Little things like being able to put your status on red on on teams or whatever program that you use so that people can just see that you're busy. But I have to really take proactive action to really cultivate those moments, let people know that I'm gonna be working on something that takes deeper work.
And I think that lawyers overall, I imagine a lot of you will relate to me when I talk about that, that the demands, and there's this inherent contradiction, the complexity of our work. Requires flow for us to achieve it. But the reality is, particularly once you become a manager or a leader of other lawyers where you are answering to, not just to your clients, but to the other lawyers in your team becomes so challenging.
So that's something that I have been really working on and cultivating. And I can certainly notice the difference when I am successful at it. When I have got the flow, you just wa, you look up and you go, oh wow, how is it that time? Look at what I've done. Wow. Okay. And the quality of the work is just better because you've actually been able to engage with those issues.
Skala, what does that resonate with your experience with the coaching that you do and perhaps are there any tips or strategies that you have seen work with your high level clients?
Absolutely all the things that you're sharing, it's very important. And to acknowledge and, and be able, like noticing them.
And then how do you deal with, how can you create strategy and tools to deal with that reality? Like one of the most effective strategies that I have seen is like deep focus work. Understand when is the best time, when is your peak energy that you work the, the best? And then maybe block 90 minutes or 60 minutes, whatever that it is for you of an uninterrupted deep work.
And that may be requires some communication telling your team that I'm busy, I'm doing deep work here. Or having one channel of communication. If you need me, you can call me on the phone. But everything, all the distractions are turned off. Like setting those clear B boundaries to protect that time like that can really transform your productivity.
Another one is setting clear goals and feed in feedback loops right fro strives on clarity. So at the start of the task, what is your goal? What do you wanna achieve when you're sitting down to do that deep work? Whether it's completing a draft, whether it's solving a legal issue, or preparing for a client meeting and, and becoming quite clear, like in this next minute, I'm going to prepare the, the first draft of this legal advice.
In the next 30 minutes I'm going to revise. And then in the next, next 30 minutes, I'm going to discuss this with my colleague here. And another one is creating an environment that is flow friendly. Usually are encouraging lawyers to create a space that optimize their focus. That might mean for them to minimize visual clutter or using noise canceling headphones to block distractions or to like time blocking apps like using the Pomodoro technique where you have few minutes of deep work with small breaks along the way.
Yeah, and if you even think about one more tool here, it's just like thinking if it's something is really big, if it's a very complex case that you are dealing with or something that feels quite overwhelming, it's breaking inches, molar, and more manageable steps. So I'm going to like break into, first I'm going to just brainstorm the second part.
I'm going to work on this, the first stage of this advice, and then I'm going to go into the next stage like moving, because that makes it easier to move along. Right. And be very aware of. The barriers for flow, like the number one enemy of flow is multitasking. Is disruption that prevents that deep immersion in in the now and to be fully present in what you are doing because you're constantly being pulled in different directions.
And another part to taking to pay attention to is the recovery time flow requires a lot of energy. You're there, you are producing, it's energizing, but it'll, because of that, it's important to rest after you're inflow. So make sure that you are prioritizing rest and breaks and activity that actually recharge you both physically and mentally so that you can show up and and be at flow again.
Alright, so Carla, let's get into just talking about the next element of Pamela, which is relationships. And on one level, this one seems obvious. That's about the relationships that you have in your life. The, the personal ones, but also the fact that when you go to the coffee shop, the cafe work might know your name for example.
So those other connections in the community, um, I know that recently having joined, uh, a gym a few months ago and also now going to a yoga studio regularly, people know my name now, and that's made a huge difference because they're keeping track of me as I go. So it's not just those close relationships, there's multiple levels and it's also those connections and relationships that we have at work with our colleagues, our clients.
And when we think about how this is relevant in terms of our wellbeing, I don't think it's would be a surprise to anybody that ultimately humans are social beings and that the relationships that we have play such a elemental fundamental role in our wellbeing. And that if we're missing that. It's very unlikely that we would be flourishing.
So I'm curious because over the years as a lawyer, I've seen many busy lawyers, right? And it's so easy to get caught up in being so busy. And I think particularly once people have families, for example, some of the lawyers I've seen, either A, they don't even have time for their families. Or if they do, they're sacrificing other relationships.
Men seem to be particularly prone to that. I don't have any research evidence to hand to back that up, but I think that a lot of research out there that that is in the popular domain at least seems to allude to men not necessarily having those broader relationships around. That's a very wordy way, Carla, of leading into my essential question is with all these busy lawyers who might be experiencing some of those things and neglecting aspects of their relationships, I'm curious what you've seen in your work with clients having worked with so many professionals, including lawyers.
Yeah, it's it again, it's one of the things that is very easy to take the backseat, right? And then what is really important here, it's like how do we create. Time space for that to exist in our lives. And sometimes that is a bit different than what used to be when we're uni or before we had a family.
Sometimes we have caught up with that idea. Okay, it's, it's hanging out with my friends at a having dinner or meeting on the weekend. But sometimes it's like, it's now it's maybe just a phone call or maybe it's a calling a colleague and having a check-in coffee, for example. So I think one of the strategies that I really help my clients implement is we encouraging them to implement is connection time and whatever that means for them.
Maybe it is scheduling a weekly lunch, maybe it's a check-in coffee or maybe it's just calling someone. So these is small, intentional moments of connection can really provide help you sustain the energy and the emotional support and the sense of community that we all need. And then, and the life outside work, that is also important, like making.
Space for friendships. 'cause they are some, the people that really know us outside our professional life, sometimes we forget what that connection bring to us is the joy, the, the laughing, the perspective that it can bring. So another important aspect as well when we think about relationships at work is a psychological safety.
How do we create and foster meaningful relationship and work, but creating an environment where people can feel that they can speak openly, they can share their ideas, that they can ask for help we without fear of being judged or retaliation, right? So when psychological safety exists in the team, collaborates better and more effectively.
I can also brings innovations and the individuals feel supported. So that's another important aspect when we think about relationship as well, is creating that safety so people can communicate.
Yeah, that that is so important. And I think sometimes in some very traditional law firms, they might have competitive environments, for example, or very MAs traditionally masculine environments with that traditional old fashioned definition of what that entails.
I can see that might not be there, and in fact, we're in a cultural and political moment where a lot of that is under fire. And so I can imagine a situation where, particularly for our listeners over the Pacific Ocean, might be feeling like they don't have that environment at the moment in some workplaces.
Because the very point of these equity, diversity, inclusion initiatives was actually to provide the safety for individuals, the environment where they can fully participate, that they can exercise their full humanity. In whatever workplace that is. What's the tip or suggestions that we, you could give for lawyers who are feeling that their workplace is not valuing that at the moment?
Because that being that safety with your colleagues that you feel like you have an environment where you are safe is so fundamental.
Yeah. And look, Kathleen, now as you're sharing, it's a very unique time in a lot of, uh, spaces. This is, has been reevaluated due due to the political situations, but in a normal environment.
What I would suggest is like model that open communication from yourselves. Be willing to share your own challenges and uner uncertainties and encourage others to do the same. Bring the sense of vulnerability as well. Listening sometimes really bringing that practice, that active listening, show genuine interest in what the colleagues have to say and avoid jumping quickly to conclusions or judgment and recognize like the contributions, acknowledgement, and celebrate the efforts and, and the success that those around you brings.
Or creating a culture of mutual respect and support as well. It's one of, so
perhaps what I'm hearing too is that even in less normal situations, it could involve very difficult choices, but on one level, modeling how you wanna be treated is a pretty good place to start. Absolutely. Because that's what is within your control.
Yeah. And perhaps the only thing in your control in that environment is how you react. Yeah. It's a good little kind of jumping off point, I think, to going to the next element of this model, which is all about meaning and purpose. The meaning and purpose that we find in our work as being such an another unique element or source of wellbeing.
And this is a big one I think for a lot of lawyers. This is beyond the money that we earn as lawyers. This is a sense of connecting to a greater purpose. This idea that our work in some ways matters and it's easy to lose connection with. If I think about my own experience as a lawyer, that meaning and purpose was really important from the moment I was in law school.
This I ideas of justice. Broader ideas of the common good were really important in leading me to go to law school. And then as a lawyer working primarily in the public sector, it was all about this idea of contributing to some kind of bigger cause. And when I think of the moments that I have found most hard in my work, it would be when I have lost that sense.
It might be that I'm working on something and I have forgotten the connection because it seems so micro or so small between that like what I'm doing in the moment and some greater purpose. And it's only when I've reminded myself of the connection between what I am doing in the moment and that bigger purpose that I've been able to reengage with that at certain times.
How does that resonate? Does that, am I making sense? And what do you think lawyers can do in order to really take practical steps if they have lost. Or feeling like they just need to reconnect with that greater sense of meaning and purpose.
Yeah. It's sometimes it's just a stop and pause and I can asking, like taking a moment to say what went well today, my day, how does my work contribute to something meaningful?
And it's trying to find like what within your environment, what is here that that is, that is important to me. We had a whole um, episode on values. Right? But going back to your values, it's another aspect of it. How am I leaving my value today? Let's say, for example, that I value integrity or service. So how is my value of service it's being fulfilled today, my work?
Hmm. Considering the cases that you might be working with, how is what my work is creating meaning to somebody else? How am I serving the bigger picture or. Stop and asking why does this matter? It's, it's re-engaging. It's trying to find the pur purpose in what we do every day, and that's very important.
Sometimes out of these reflections, come different ideas, adjustments, conversations that we might have to increase that sense of meaning and purpose.
What I like about what you've just said there, Carla, is the fact that I think what a lot of people sometimes get caught up with is the fact that it has to be grand.
They think like some big purpose, and yes, the examples I just talked about in terms of bigger concerns of justice or make any difference, and yes, they're real, but sometimes that can be a bit overwhelming. What I like about what you said about connecting it with your personal values is it can be much more linked to just.
You living those values in action and it can be lived and gained through small actions. It doesn't have to be about some grand goal. So when I think about my own experience, it's not just that bigger sense of justice or the public good in terms of, in my legal practice, I'm an administrative lawyer and I've always viewed that as keeping government in check, being in government, making sure that government acts lawfully.
But it doesn't have to be that kind of grand in a sense, or that you want to change. End world poverty is the kind of thing that stems from the eighties that used to hear grand but impossible and you'd end up depressed if potentially if you measure your value by that. But when you talk about much smaller, achievable values, like for me learning.
Connection that I can find meaning and purpose perhaps in something that I've learned something new or that I've connected with a client in a interesting way and really help them achieve the particular aim. Even if that was something quite small does. What do you think about that?
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.
It's having that awareness, but some, if we got caught up in the bigger picture and that's not happening, it's a how do we start practicing from where we are here with what is within our control?
It just occurs to me too, that the other part of that is that particularly if you're a L young lawyer, you might not know what you don't know, what you are passionate about yet.
You might not have got a fully developed sense of meaning and purpose, and I think we can sometimes put too much pressure on ourselves in order to obtain it. My view, it's just about experimenting. Actually following your curiosity to see where that leads you. And in a profession like the law, there are so many paths.
So I think that it's really important if you're a young lawyer or even not so young, to not get caught up in, in, in that and, and to just experiment and play and see where that might lead you. Have you seen that issue come up in your coaching?
Yeah, absolutely. Because sometimes we want to have exactly why I want to have the purpose and I want it to have this way.
I want it to have through this job. Right? So what I have noticed when people don't have that sense of purpose, right? It's a bit like what you're saying is how do we build that? It's using that curiosity, right? Like it's creating space to ask yourselves to actually hear your own voice. You might not know exactly how that looks like, what kind of role it is, or what kind of company that might be, right?
But you might, as you're creating space to reflect and ask the questions and hear, what do you say? And then you, you gain small clarity and you work with that. What am I, what do I love? What am I curious about?
Yeah. And it's not necessarily having that you wanna have X job in five years because it will give you why meaning.
Mm. It's more like for me, I've never been able to answer those coaching questions necessarily because for me it was like, if I have clear clarity about my values, there are a thousand ways that I can live my values. So it's about, for me, it's about thinking about what are the high level goals? Yeah. It'll help me live those values in action and in a sense of all the different options that I can't control.
Life happens if I'm living those values and following my curiosity, I'm developing and growing that sense of meaning and purpose. And it will change over time as well. Yeah, absolutely.
But it's easier when we are a bit more reflective, right? It's easier when you create space to hear out what's going on in, in our inner voice.
Some people don't have that ability like they have. They are much more analytical and much more responding to what's happening in the environment. And this is what we are talking about. If that is the case, how do we come back and start it here? And it's quite common when we get like up to the age or we get some more experience in, in the work that we, we get to a point with, is this really
what I want?
Absolutely. And certainly if I think about my own experience, me adding in coaching to the legal career and pursuing this new body of knowledge, it's taken what so many hundreds of hours, but it again, it has simply emerged what is now a great deal of sense of meaning and purpose through just following that curiosity.
If you'd have told me six years ago that this would be my a source of meaning and purpose, and this is what I was, would be doing, I'd laugh. I would just say, no, that's impossible. It couldn't happen. And here we are. So life is full of surprises. But look, we could spend so long talking about this and it could be a podcast on its own.
Very lengthy. So in the interests of time, really wanna focus on the next element of the model, which is accomplishment. And this is really about our achievements, and it's an independent source of meaning. And when Martin Saligman looked at this, he was challenged because. I think that there was somebody he was talking to, I can't remember the exact story, but effectively a woman challenged him.
She loved achieving and she was asserting that was a source of wellbeing in its own right, quite separate to the relationships and all the other elements that we have talked about. And so this is an interesting one for lawyers, I think because lawyers, to get to be a lawyer, you've done well at school, you've done well at uni, you've put in a lot of time, you're generally a high achiever.
Achievement is probably important to you. You invest a lot. Certain lot of behaviors can come with that. Potentially perfectionism, potentially over reliance on this as a source of wellbeing. We might be so reliant that we neglect some of those other areas like relationships. So I'm interested in this one because I think where we can make it sustainable is thinking about and being again, reflective about what is the role we want achievement to have in our life and how can we be sustainable about that?
And some of that might be the growth kind of mindset that we bring to that and that growth mindset is this idea that we can grow our abilities and intelligence. That it's not fixed. It's not just that we're smart or not, or that we are good at something or not, that we can develop. One of the things that I think is also funny about lawyers is that lawyers often think they have a growth mindset because they're clever, usually.
Not always, but they think that they're, they've got a growth mindset, but sometimes they don't because actually they've grown up with very fixed ideas about what they can and can't do or what they're good at, which can actually set them back. So I'm curious to you. Just for some general comments about achievement and perhaps the role of the growth mindset.
Yeah, sure.
And look, and this is one that I'm quite, I rely a lot on it 'cause growth is one of my own values as well, which is very much linked to this kind, the achievement. And we have to be so careful with it because of course, high achievers, usually we tend to push ourselves so hard to get to their next goal.
But one way is to apply that growth mindset in each, especially for lawyers, is helping reframe the setbacks, right? The things that didn't quite. Happen the way that we want to because these are also the opportunity for growth, right? We sometimes tend to perceive them as failure, but actually helping refrain and looking, okay, so this is an opportunity for me to learn and grow.
For example, after losing a case, rather than feeling getting discouraged, take a step back. What went well? What didn't, what can I learn from this and improve next time? How can this kind of reflective practice approach and turn challenges into stepping stones to grow and become even better? Another aspect of it that is very helpful, and this is like seeking feedback, right?
And when we use feedback as opportunity for growth as well, rather than perceiving as criticism, right, and, and not feel defensive. When you do receive a, a feedback that is a constructive one that is helping you grow, right? Sometimes it's hard to hear. But it really helps us define refining these skills and identifying the blind spots and it can help us becoming better.
Mm-hmm.
Um, and so specifically burnout, because achievement I think will be a source of wellbeing for most of us, but we've talked about the risks and they can be really significant if we over rely on this. So how come lawyers really
achieve mindfully?
Yeah, and I, and I think it is that, right? It is using like the, when it goes, when we win a case, when you do something, then you, the achievement is right there in front of you. It's easy to celebrate, right? What we're calling the attention here is that like, how do you achieve, um, but you also reflect when you don't achieve, right?
When is. Well, when the setbacks are there, when there is the so-called failure, when you don't get exactly how, where it is that you want and how do you use that? How do you reframe that as part of achievement?
Mm. Yeah. So again, once again, so much of this is around active reflection, which at its heart is what coaching is all about, providing you the space to do, it's probably a good place to go to health.
So we've covered all of those that are in solid wind's, original model, but health is often added as an extra one now by a lot of scholars in the field of positive psychology. And I think it's fair to say that's in recognition that those other elements almost assumed this one, but it's useful to make it explicit that health, mental, physical.
Is underpins or is elemental to these other elements that we really can't be thriving or flourishing without that. Although that's not to say people do have mental illness and are physically ill and sick, and of course they are able to flourish. So this is not simply to say if you have those elements, you can't.
It's a lot more nuanced than that. But I think nevertheless, it is to recognize the foundational role that health does play in our wellbeing. I'm interested, Carla, in your view about the inclusion of this in the PERMA model and maybe some practical steps that we can take when things are getting busy, for example.
Sure. Before even we started sharing any of this here, it's important to acknowledge that we are not healthcare professionals and the things that we are saying here doesn't substitute medical or professional advice. So if you're struggling with something that physical health or mental health issues, we encourage you to look for a healthcare provider or a counselor that, a qualified professional that can really support you.
What the things that we are discussing here is much more at a healthy level. How do you look after yourself in a way that you can put your brain and body in the optimum space for you to function? Of course, if you don't sleep well, if you are not eating well, like if you're not moving, chances are. That you are not performing at your best, right?
Because you might not be feeling your best. So how do you make within your control? Like how do you prioritize yourself? That's what we are talking about. And there's a few areas, like there, there's the rest. How do you recover? And that's usually come with sleep. The guidelines is around seven to nine hours.
So how do you create a bedtime routines that minimizes screen time, promotes relaxation. There's a lot of stuff around sleep. Sometimes there's very good sleep. Um, coaches and sleep centers that can help you create the optimum sleep routine for yourself. Um, movement. How do you move? For some people is exercise or the gym for other people is playing a game.
So sometimes it's even just micro breaks getting up from your desk and walking outside. So there is some sort of movement. You are moving your body. The other aspect is how you feel your body. Is it healthy food? Like how are you eating and understand what foods make you feel good in some, in stuff that doesn't make you feel good as well.
Um, and playing around with it, it's testing. I feel like I, for myself personally, I have a very good routine around how do I put my brain and body in an optimum place so I know very well if I don't sleep seven to eight hours, usually I'm a bit tired, so this day I will take less on when I am feeling rested and you and, and refreshed.
It's a kind, it's a different kind of approach. So then I choose movements on that day that is going to support. I would say start small. Look at one of those areas. Which one are you struggling most with, and what is the very first step that I can create? Sometimes it could be I'm going to create a rule to.
Get up out on my chair every hour or every so often, or I'm going to prioritize hydration. I'm going to bring a glass of water for all the meetings. Um, it can be small, right? But it, and at the same time going back and saying, okay, so what am I doing towards taking care of myself today?
Yeah. So not being overwhelmed by, oh, I need to get fit or, but actually looking at it at a much more school, small scale level, there's so much there.
So thank you for that, Carla. And that's probably a good opportunity to bring it all together because I can see situation here where the lawyer, a lawyer's listening to us right now and thinking, oh my goodness, they have discover the whole of life. There is so much there in every single element. They might feel that they're neglecting maybe one or two that could be a bit dispiriting, potentially.
Um. But we don't want lawyers to feel that way. So I'm curious as to, in order not to be overwhelmed, but to use this as a really practical kind of model, how might we bring it together?
Yeah. So think about the six elements of permit, right? Positive emotions, engagement, relationships, meaning and accom accomplishment and health.
And then ask yourself, which one resonates most with me right now? What's one small step that I can take today to improve one of those areas? And this may finding small moments of joy and gratitude within your work. It could be creating space for flow. It could be as simple as minimizing distractions. Or maybe it's relationship.
How do I build and nurture meaningful relationships both personally and professionally, or how can I connect to my core values and find purpose in my work? Maybe it's redefining success and and celebrate progress, or it is your health, it's prioritizing your health as the foundation for everything else.
Yeah. I think what's good about this is that it can be slow. Like I think of you've just reminded me of a, a time at work when it was really hard. We had really difficult legal issues and urgent matters, and I was working really hard. It was stressful because there was a due date, due advice by the end of the day, et cetera, and really difficult kind of quiet environment.
And for me in that moment, it was simply taking the pleasure and a cup of tea and I did it right. Yeah. And then at the end of the day, taking the moment to debrief with my colleague that I was working with so that we could just have a laugh. And it was really simple, but you know what? That was getting in positive emotions and it was also getting in relationships.
And it can be that small. And I think the other thing I really want lawyers to take away is since I have learned about this model so thoroughly, it is now part of my mental architecture. So if something is a bit off or something is not right, I'm can immediately think of it and go, where is this happening?
Why? What is the thing? And it might be the. I'm just too tired. I haven't had enough sleep. Or it might be, actually, you know what? I've been working hard. I live on my own and work remotely and I haven't talked to somebody outside of work today or in the last couple of days. So it's just a simple phone call and you can start actually looking at your behavior in that really small way and just use it as a test.
What am I doing? That said, I think if people are feeling like there is one area that they're really lacking and they find that it's quite confronting or disturbing, maybe it is time to think about, do I need to go see my doctor and just have a check in and, and think about things. Take of this, if you will.
But Carla, any kind of summing up or final comments in response to that?
No. You summarized beautifully, right? It's exactly that. It's actually. It can be small. It's using that feeling, I'm not feeling well as a warning sign and as a beginning for exploration, what is it? Oh, it might be that phone call. I might just pick up the phone and call a friend.
Celebrating the moment, like the example that you gave, celebrating with someone the positive emotion. It's investigating rather than allowing, okay, I'm not feeling well, and that's it, I'm not feeling well and becoming reactive to the environment around us. So yeah, you, you've, yeah, you nailed, like you applied all of this so well in your life now.
Oh look, I'm human. So I, we all have our moments, but it definitely has helped. Okay. Look, before we finish up, I just wanna give a little plug to our, um, guide to Thriving in 2025 Guide to Sustainable Steps that really takes you through a process about gaining clarity and being able to walk away with a concrete goal and action that.
Does consider the perma model as we go. So really encourage you to download that. And I also just want to give a plug to our course launch, which will be happening on Tuesday, the 11th of March, I believe. So that's very exciting. So please watch out for that. We will include a link to check out the course in our show notes as well.
So thank you lawyers, and we look forward to connecting with you next time. Thank you. Thank you.
Thank you so much for listening to this episode of the thriving lawyer with Kathleen Brenner. And Carla Ferraz, if you like it, please share it with your lawyer friends and colleagues, and tag us on Instagram at @thriving lawyer or on LinkedIn via the links in the show notes. And if you liked what you heard, please drop a review in apple podcasts.
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If you'd like to work with us, check out our free resources and our signature course, the thriving lawyer. Which you will find at www.thrivinglawyer.com.au. You can also download our free guide, the lawyer's guide to thriving in 2025. A sustainable roadmap for success.
It's filled with great tips and ideas so that you can begin to make real change. You'll find the link to that in our show notes.
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