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Kathleen: You are listening to The Thriving Lawyer with Kathleen Brenner and Carla Ferraz. I'm Kathleen, a highly experienced lawyer and an International Coaching Federation accredited coach.
Carla: And I am Carla. Like Kathleen, I am an ICF certified coach and I have worked with top leaders and professionals, many of them lawyers, at some of the world's biggest organizations.
My focus is on using evidence based approaches to help my clients thrive at work and in the rest of their lives. Together,
Kathleen: we bring you the Thriving Lawyer podcast, a podcast filled with ideas and inspiration, as well as practical tips to help you thrive as a lawyer and in the rest of your
life. Let's get into it.
Hello everyone. Welcome back to episode seven of the Thriving Lawyer [00:01:00] Podcast. I'm your host Carla Ferraz, and today's episode is truly special. I have the pleasure to be joined by someone who not only helped shape the vision of the Thriving Lawyer Course, but also embodies everything that we stand for.
So this is my co-host and dear friend, Kathleen Brenner. Now, Kathleen isn't just a great lawyer. She's someone who, a story perfectly captures the essence and the transformation that we teach and celebrate in our course. So over the past few years, she has courageously redesigned every aspect of her life.
So the way that she works, the way that she practices law, and how she prioritizes her wellbeing, and how she show up for herself and others every single day. So we're going to dive deeper into her inspiring story and what sparked her desire to change and the sum of the moments along the way that helped her [00:02:00] create the changes that she wanted to create for herself, and the challenges that she faces, as well as in the obstacles.
So Kathleen, I'm really thrilled to have you here. I cannot wait to, for you to share some of the incredible story in your wisdom. Through the journey that you've embarked yourself and this the transformation from working as a full-time lawyer to part-time lawyer to become a coach, to create space for other aspects of your life to exist on daily basis as well.
So welcome. Thank you, Carla. It's quite something to have the tables turned in this way, but I'm also looking forward to the discussion, so thank you. Okay, so let's see. Can we, can you take us back to what life was like before you started making these changes in your life and work? Okay. Look, to start with the, the first kind of point I wanted to make is, it's actually a little tricky for me to pick a specific [00:03:00] time when it was the before and the after, because this was such a gradual process.
I think really had its roots back in about 2016, which is almost 10 years ago now. When I got coaching myself, I was living in Canberra. I'd been living in Canberra almost nine years. It had got to the point where I really wanted to make a change, but wasn't really sure how or what. I knew. I wanted to come home back to Melbourne, but really wasn't clear about.
Next steps. And I think I'd got myself into a little bit of a rut of full-time work. I was very comfortable and that discovery of coaching through being coached really helped me articulate what was important to me. And within six months, I'd already got a new job. I'd moved, started my new life in Melbourne again, got a flat in a area that I'd [00:04:00] always wanted to live in, and that was the beginning of its own significant change.
Then it went a along. I was still living that full-time standard kind of professional life. That was absolutely the dominant thing with the commute. It took a lot, so much of my energy. There wasn't a whole lot of space, even though the work hours were probably a lot better even then. Then a lot of the private firms, and certainly I was enjoying myself, but it deepened as we went.
I did a manager as coach course as part of my work, and that really, again. Help me discover coaching as a thing, uh, and realize that not only was it useful for me being coached, but that I actually wanted to take that further. And from then I asked the instructor, how could I take this forward? I ended up going to Canada, doing my coach training.
And so gradually, and the reason I go through into that detail with the before and after, it was each of those gradual steps that opened up and I began to ask myself questions, which made further things possible, [00:05:00] which led to more questions. I started exploring already becoming a coach when I did that coach training in 2019 and was practicing, and then of course when 2020 happened, our whole world shifted off its axis.
It seemed. I was in Melbourne for that, and a lot of that was really tough, but the silver lining for me is I commenced remote working, then it took out the commute. I wasn't able to do so much of what was normally in my life that it forced me to really prioritize. I embarked on more coach training. I did hundreds of hours of coaching exchanges with people, which really helped me get like clarity around what it is that I wanted.
And it was from that point that I could begin to make more change. Like I don't think if the pandemic and the questions that it made me pose hadn't have happened that I would be working. In the way that I am today. Part of it would've been that the social conditions weren't right for it, but part of it is also that I don't think [00:06:00] I would've had the courage.
So it was through that coaching process and asking those questions that in the end, to pursue the coaching and the opportunities that were coming from that I ended up resigning from the public service, and that was the point where I'd got a management job that had a lot of promise. It was with people that I really respected.
There could have been a really good pathway, but with that kind of whole reassessment, I knew that there were opportunities in that coaching space that I wanted to take up, that I needed greater flexibility to be able to do that. And from there I ended up working for the lawyer bank, a new model law firm, and contracting now with my clients and that flexibility that has given me.
Being able to still work remotely has absolutely been transformative. If I had the commute commute, I wouldn't have been able to do the things like focus on where health and fitness start a business, do more of that [00:07:00] coaching. None of this is something that you can switch on and just flip and the transformation.
This is all something that happens over a lengthy time through that process of questioning. What I think has been my biggest insight over this time is that power that coaching brings to the fore of like just asking yourself questions. Just to finish off that kind of thought, I remember years ago I was listening to the radio and Dr.
Carl was scientist. I think it was the radio or perhaps it was an article that he wrote, but I remember him saying that he'd done lots of study and degrees and he didn't want to live the same year every year. He thought most people were doing that. They were having their lives structured in a particular way.
It was very easy to fall in that trap of work collapsing in the evening 'cause you're exhausted and watching tv, not connecting with community, not pursuing new interests, not learning, et cetera. And I didn't want that. And so I think [00:08:00] that this framework has given me the, the tools, the conceptual kind of frameworks or the challenge to be able to.
Try and live a bit more deliberately. Beautiful. It's so powerful hearing you describing that, Kathleen, and what I hear you sharing, it's that it highlights one of the things that we talked a lot about in a thriving lawyer, right? The ability to self-reflect and experiment along the way and then reevaluate what you're doing and more doors were open along the way in which, you know, with each self-reflection, like asking yourself questions.
And also I hear you saying is the importance of recognizing where you are operating and out of alignment with what you truly want. So the awareness was, I'm taking it was the first key step to go and say, okay, I, I don't want this, so what do I want? Absolutely. And I think also with coaching what that is in our masters at Sydney University, one of the most powerful [00:09:00] things that I think both you and I got out of it.
Was the lessons about the kind of self-reflection, like we were taught about, A lot of people self-reflect, but they, they ruminate and they get into cycles. But what that coaching framework enables you to do is to not ruminate because you're engaging in self-reflection that is much more productive, solution focused, self-reflection.
Like when you ask yourself, you do talk about the problem, they struggle as a sense of, I understand, but then we ask questions. Okay, so what can I do about that? What is the first step? How do I go about it? And then the things that start showing up as we take the first action and then sometimes we realize that it wasn't it.
Right. As you mentioned, you took one job that you thought it was that and then opened up to something else. I know you shared the, this moment what you was listening to the radio and then you didn't wanna be leaving that same year over and over again. But was there, was that the particular moment that you really felt that you wanted to shift [00:10:00] things?
Where you wanted to create more thriving than just coping. Can you pinpoint any other moment in in that? Yeah, look, there's, in some ways, there's a lot of those moments that were iterative because of each time, as you say, you experiment and then you realize and have new possibilities or insights. So I think in a sense.
The things that I love now in terms of the key values that I have and what's important to me hasn't really changed a lot since I was quite young. I, I found a list a while ago of things that I wanted to do by the time I was 30, and I like a lot of that stuff. I'm might look a little different, but pretty much.
But that said, I think I, I really have to come back to the pandemic because that powerful experience when, when I could not go more than five kilometers outta my zone. There were really good reasons for that, and I understood them, and I was determined to get through that period. I'd also broken my ankle the year before and that it affected my [00:11:00] mobility, so I'd already had a extended moment of reflection too.
That was important, but I think that pandemic really went well. Okay. Everything is up in the air. The whole society seems to be changing around us. What do I actually want and. I, I think that was when I started to percolate with the idea for the thriving lawyer, and I try, I had this idea, I had tinkered with it on my own before I got the courage up to mention it to you and get you on board, but I started to reflect on, in my own life those different things.
And then, yeah, that, that of course made it possible to explore how to share this. Yeah. So what I hear you saying is that like during the pandemic, you had this space to reflect and start asking yourself what truly matters, right? Because it all becomes a bit quiet, right? Yeah. And I know like a lot of people, like it was a [00:12:00] really tough time for a lot of people and depression and all those kind of mental health issues were really at the, for, I think what saved me from any of that.
Was that coaching that I was doing at the time that it was, it gave me that space to reflect in a solutions focused manner. Like exactly what you said. You're being asked questions about what can you do about that? Giving you agency Yes. You deal with in a world that felt like there is nothing. There's nothing I should, yeah, but no.
I can say I couldn't even leave my house for some of it, but what would I control? Turned out I could control an awful down lock. Yeah. Much more than. I had thought you timed a little bit in like knowing your values and in, in realizing that they haven't really changed and values and strengths is such a foundation of what we teach on the thriving lawyer.
How did you get clear on those values and how did they impact the, the steps that you took and was there anything unexpected that you learned about [00:13:00] yourself through that process? Yeah, again, the, I think my first contact with some of the values work. Was probably even earlier than that first experience with coaching.
We had a performance expert, Andrew May who I actually, he's the one that I heard about the Sydney University, masters of Science and Coaching Psychology from, and he came to our work probably WOO two, I'm guessing, 2013, 12, somewhere around there. And could have been 14, I'm not sure. Over 10 years ago. He talked about that kind of values, but he also made us do the VIA Character Strengths assessment, and that really changed things because it validated and gave me language, like the key value that came up and has come up in the five or six times.
Every time I do that test is the number one value is a love of learning. Once I had awareness of that, it was like, oh, okay. Now I know when I get bored at work, if I feel [00:14:00] like I'm doing the same thing over and over again or why that, like that constant curiosity, why it's not a surprise. I've been quite bookish all my life.
That's what I need in order to feel satisfied. The other, the other things I suppose, came a bit more slowly in terms of. The values work that I did with the coach, but I ended up settling on the key kind of value words that most resonated with me were that level of learning, connection, relationships with others, and then service.
And to me, like the at the highest level of abstraction, which means that I could put the color and they could adapt as to what they actually required of me over time. But like they, those three haven't changed since that point. What has changed is I've added up health much more because I see it as the enabler now, and I need to have it up there in my mind at that level of obstruction to keep it having the priority that [00:15:00] it needs to think.
The other thing that I'd add, and even though I don't characterize it as one of those key values, is like in terms of strength, and it's probably linked to. The learning and the relationships, all of it really is the appreciation of beauty and excellence, and that was one of the key things that got me through the pandemic is because having that framework of doing that VIA character strengths assessment and knowing that continuously has come up as well, every time I've ever done that, it's always in the top three, meant that I could search out, for example, during the pandemic online theater events or music or pay particular attention when I went for my walks, like I needed that.
To feel positive. Yeah, I love that it ties back so beautifully with what we teach in the Thriving Lawyer, like the self-leadership. When you know your values and your strengths, you create language and you stop looking outside yourself for answers. Like you become your own [00:16:00] best guide and design your life based on what matters most for you, like love of learning.
Like the appreciation for beauty and excellence, you can then go and look for that even in a, in a time that you could actually get out to live with that in the way that you're used to live, right? Like you are, you became very creative. Maybe I can look at online or maybe I can go and learn something here where I am.
So we also talk a lot about the perma motto in the course, like positive emotions, engagement, relationships meaning achievement and health. Which parts. Have been most powerful for you? I know you mentioned the health, and I know that recently you've made like really big shifts around your physical health.
Yeah. So maybe both a little bit on the PERMA and how prioritizing your energy have changed your overall wellbeing. Yeah. I first came across that PERMA model I think in 2020 when I did another coaching course that was much more positive, psychology [00:17:00] focused. Then I remember reading Salad Wind's book about that.
I think it's called Flourish. We can put that resource in the show notes, but it resonated with you because what I found about that is just that it's such a practical tool to think about if something is, doesn't seem quite right. You can almost put how you're living through that lens and going, ah, is there an element that I'm.
Missing in the moment. You might get too caught up with one aspect. Like in a lot of ways I've been a very typical lawyer because I love learning because I'm have loved lawyering for much of its time, and I get a lot of meaning from my legal work. Working in public service has always been very important to me.
That's why I've either been in government or had government clients my entire career. Can be prone to putting too much emphasis on that achievement aspect because [00:18:00] that's important for the meaning. I like having a, having a career and achieving at work and making a difference. They're all important to me, but that means that I have to make sure that I'm not giving up other things that are also important sources of wellbeing.
One of the things that I liked about the way Soloman is framed this is he made the point where people can have preferred sources of wellbeing. But you know, if you're over indexing online, maybe there's a problem there. And so for me, I suppose what I've tried to do in recent times is really emphasized the relationships and give time with the positive emotions in terms of making, having the space.
'cause I find for me, those two go together. Because a lot of the things that I love doing that bring me joy and having, it's not all, but a fair degree of them do involve the relationships that I have with others. And the other thing is health wast in the original PAM model, that's not part of Seligman's model, but often US [00:19:00] people or scholars in the field will add it because it's that enabler.
And I think for me that is important because I have made. Big changes and I'd been playing with them and doing it like I would go to the gym over the, over the years or whatever. But I think that absolute priority. I did have a health issue last year that made me really have to reprioritize that and put particular emphasis, and it's probably fair to say since about November, I, except for a period when I got sick with a cold and couldn't go for a couple of weeks, I've been going to the gym three times a week and yoga also three times a week.
And that has been. A massive change. That is a lot, but it's, I've got it into a sustainable rhythm with the way that I put it together. And I have to say that has made a big difference in my overall energy, health, fitness, et cetera. Wow, that's so inspiring, Kathleen. And we often have to [00:20:00] remind ourselves that it's not just about one aspect, like it's how do we support our whole life?
And as you're saying, achievement is really important. Can I put a lot here, but how do I balance that with relationship and positive emotion? So creating space for other things to exist in your life as well. And I love you saying like the, the prioritizing health as the foundation. It feels everything else, right?
So you're living proof that how invest in your wellbeing that lifts every other part of your life as well. Because you tend to feel better, you tend to have more energy. You tend to then give more to the, maybe even the word I like to use is maybe more efficient and maybe even effective in where you're choosing to put your attention.
Yeah, and look, that's gonna look different for everybody. I know that I'm in a very particular situation. I don't have children, so that means that there are, there's not the caregiving responsibilities in my life [00:21:00] that would take a massive amount of time, but. You know what is possible is going to look different to everybody.
And I know your experience as a mother is quite, you've got a different set of challenges in the way that you maintain that. I think the question that no matter who you are or what the situation is and what have I found helpful is, okay, what is it with that framework in mind with the values? What am I saying yes to?
What am I saying no to? What can I out completely outsource? And as a lawyer and the financial freedom I have, I am, there is privilege in that. In what I can do. But it's important to acknowledge that and to see that and to create those opportunities if you have them. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. And this is about you, but just to tap into being a mom.
Exercise has always been a very strong part of my life. But remember, my kids were little. We used to do things together, right? I used to do yoga with them. I chose a, an exercise class that had a playgroup. So I could exercise and they were [00:22:00] there with me. There was a yoga class that kids could come. It's not the same, but it's better than zero.
And now, yeah. And now my girls, they run. So I try to go for a walk while they're running. I can no longer keep up. But it's remembering as well, like especially around kids, that they do grow, things do change. So that evaluation on what is, what becomes possible along the way, and then shift. So thank you. So tapping a little bit into your habits and routines and setting goals.
So when can, like when we think about setting goals that actually work, what was your experience? How did you actually implemented all the changes that you've made? Can you share a little bit? Did you set goals? Did you have had, did you create habits and routines that have really helped you? What advice would you give someone that is struggling to set goals and create habits and stay consistent?
Yeah, since it's really interesting 'cause there's a tension here because I am [00:23:00] the kind of person that kind of chafes against structure and habits has traditionally been a difficult area for me because I value as well, flexibility and spontaneity. So it's something. I've had to grapple with, but if we step back from habits and just stick with the goals first.
One of the things that I never related to when I heard coaches do this, and I think it's sometimes contributes to coaches getting a bit of a bad rap, is when they talk about the importance of 10 year plans. I will have X specific job in five years or 10 years, which is something out of your control. You can't control whether.
Someone gives you a particular job unless you're starting your own business and then you can, and even then you don't know whether it'll work. I never found that kind of thing helpful, like I just don't, and I don't think it works. I think what has come out, and it's the framework that is [00:24:00] evidence-based that we use in the Thriving Lawyer, it's really important to have a view of your highest values, that ideal self, those values that you wanna live in.
Action. For me, really, if I'm totally honest, it doesn't matter what I'm doing, provided that I get the chance to continue learning, connecting with others, being of service, and being able to pursue my health. Now, that might look different if you get sick or whatever. As low as I'm living those values in action, it doesn't matter.
I can do different things, but what that has allowed me to do is then set a couple. Of like really important high level kind of goals that I can see, but not clearly. I know what they are, but I don't know exactly what it would mean to implement them and what my life would be like. One has been about transitioning to coaching and that part of that is the creation of this thriving lawyer and building that into [00:25:00] something that can sustain us.
Now, that might not mean in giving up the law entirely because I do love practicing. So I'd love to continue every now and then do a contract or something perhaps, I don't know. But having that one goal of that transition, which is when I set it a few years ago, it was out there, is something to work towards.
That's one key kind of thing. Fuzzy goal around the fitness and the health with this vision, but not really knowing what that would look like. They've been really. Important, but then the work comes with the detail below that, and in terms of experimenting with what's the most important thing I can do right now to get that forward?
You don't even have to have. A lot of goals with a lot of specificity. The habits. Yes. I've become increasingly better at that, particularly in the health space over like something I've particularly worked on while we've been doing this Thriving lawyer. I think that was a real strength that you brought to this [00:26:00] process and I've been trying to learn from that.
And for me, I'll just give you like a simple example. The mere fact of booking my three gym classes and PT sessions in. Booking my yoga classes in on the weekend means that I'm set and I don't plan other things. And because I would be letting other people down or myself, if I counseled them, I don't do it.
So I go, it's simple, so I don't have to think about it. I just go, sometimes I don't feel like it, but I've booked it. So I go and then inevitably I feel happy that I went. So you've built enough evidence now that you know that if you go, you feel better, even though now I'm not. I That's coming simple. Yeah.
It's hard to implement too if you don't get it right. But I suppose it's thinking about how can you do it and know There's still a lot of other things that I would love to create habits with that I haven't done. But sometimes it's about understanding your strengths. Like for a while I was putting pressure on myself to go for a walk [00:27:00] before work.
I've just realized actually it doesn't work for me. Really? Mm-hmm. Just doesn't work. I need my extra time. Catching up on the news is actually important to me before work. Having a good breakfast, having a good coffee, all of that gives me time. But I'm gonna do it at other points. And so now it'll be about how can I, because one thing I'm working on at the moment is trying to get my steps up.
And it's really hard when you do the gym and the yoga to then find that extra space. But one thing is, what about a short walk? How does that work? 10 minutes. Even at lunchtime, something, it's better than nothing. Yeah, there's so much that you've shared. I love the perspective that you're taking is you set a direction.
Yes. You haven't got the whole roadmap with every single goal, but you know that you're going in that direction. Right? And along the way that it evolves. Where coaching has a lot of its work, right? Because I've known these, like the vision that I've had for the thriving lawyer to, for the transition that I wanna make in my [00:28:00] career, all of that, that even the vision that I have for like my home.
They're long games. And the work of coaching is that cycle of experimentation, right? Because you we're humans, right? We get things wrong all the time. Things fail. We don't, it doesn't work. But I think part of this process too has been, rather than beating myself up all the time, which I might have done in the past, it's been much more, oh, doesn't matter.
Let's just try something new. Just doesn't matter. Does not matter. Yeah, we talk about that and the thriving lawyer too. The sustainability, right? Like you said, you book your gym sessions in, in, in yoga and events. And just to ask you a question around that, how has your mindset evolved, especially when you hit obstacles or setbacks, and also you mentioning the role of self-compassion, like how has that played a, a role in how you are approaching things today?
Just. Honing in on [00:29:00] that sustainability thing. One thing that I wanna highlight that hasn't come out yet is that importance of community. So if we just take that example of the gym, one of the things that made the difference this time is in the past I've joined big gyms that were quite impersonal. At one point when I was still working in the city, it did work because I had a friend that we would go together after work.
So that was really great because she. Was much more into habits at that time than me. And if she had said, we are going and then pulled me from the desk at work, then we went. Um, and I found that great because then we would grab a quick dinner afterwards and there was a social aspect of it too. But since then and when that, when I've had gyms, it was just big and personal and there wasn't anybody kind of who noticed, or I had relationships.
This time there was a little gym that opened up in down the street. The main street of the shops in my suburb. [00:30:00] And it was big enough that it had everything I wanted, but small enough that there was a community. And I started to get personal training. I got a free session when I joined and have gone on since now being four or five months with the trainer.
But then there's little classes every night I run them and in the morning. But I do the evening ones 'cause it's just better with my body clock. And so I've gotten to one of them is my pt. Because it's 10 people, a lot of the same people do it now. There's a whole bunch of people that say, hi Kathleen, how are you doing?
And we chat. The trainers know me, they know my progress. They know how I've gone. I've got relationships with them. And fostering that community is the missing piece often. And for me, that's been really important. At YO is the same now the instructors, they know who I am. They can see how. Even though I'm often one of the most least flexible kind of yogis in the whole class, like I'm trying and I'm showing up, I think it's making a difference.[00:31:00]
Amazing. Like the support of people around you, right? Yeah, and I think in our individualistic world, that's one thing. This coaching stuff is just not about individuals pulling themselves up by the bootstraps. Nothing could be further from the truth. I think it actually. Has helped me like using the skills I've obtained to become much more kind of connected to others in different ways.
And it's not just with family and friends, but it's that other layer of relationships that are a bit more diffuse in the community. And what do you think that gives you Sense of belonging too, I think is important because I moved to this community. I didn't know anybody two years ago. It was a completely different part of Melbourne to where I grew up than I've been in.
It's still got a long way to go. I am not saying that I've got this amazing community yet, but what has made the difference is that I can see the beginnings of it, but it's only because I'm making that effort and it would be really easy living remotely to just stay home and do my online fitness routine.
Right. Okay. [00:32:00] So what about, I love to ask, repeat the question around the obstacles and the setbacks that, how do you overcome them when they came along the way? Ha. Have you got any? Yeah, look, sometimes you feel all the emotions, right? And we are human. And it's just the reality that sometimes you can get stuck in a bit of a cycle.
But I think what I have learned from this work is how when you consciously adopt what Carol Duet calls a growth mindset, it really can change everything. So for me that was easy to connect up with that value of learning. But I had previously, if you took me back to 2015, 16, that kind of period before, up until that point, I had this [00:33:00] idea in my head that there was certain spheres that I was good at, and then there was stuff that I wasn't, I wasn't good at sport.
Which was actually incorrect 'cause I'd been pretty decent at swimming in my youth. But experiences in physical education, for example, at school had done a lot of damage. So what this worked like using that exam is when you've got a growth mindset and you say, I just can't do it yet. It's not to say you can do anything you want, but it's acknowledging possibility.
And suddenly I've put myself into all of these areas that I would never have done before. Still perfect. Like when it comes to fixing things around the house, suddenly that growth mindset can disappear in a second. And I'm drawing on the men in the, in my life to come and help me, which I really gotta challenge myself and try and step out of that.
It has expanded possibility. So nice to hear like that [00:34:00] You use the growth mindset. When you do encounter the setbacks and obstacles, well, this is here, or, I don't know how to do that yet, but let me go and try to work out. Let me get, and sometimes it's accepting right? Like that maybe when we show up to our first yoga class, we might not be as flexible at a hundred percent.
It's okay to be whatever we are. Like to begin to be at 10%, to be at 20%. But yeah, and you also need the support. Like I just think of the work with the thriving lawyer, right? Since what you and I started this. We had to learn how to record podcasts, how to publish them. We had to learn how to take videos.
We filmed our course. We had to learn how to video edit. We've had to learn how to do social media, and we're like, that's still a big space. We're gonna have to learn how to share the course with the world so that people know about us and can benefit it from, from it. And every single turn. We've just had to accept, oh, we've discovered something we don't know how to do.[00:35:00]
And it's been hard. But wouldn't you say it's been fun as well? Absolutely. Yeah. And I love how like you, you embodied the growth mindset so much that you constantly challenge me. No, I don't do podcasts. Yeah. Not yet. But look, I can't do it. And here understand. And you do them on video, so we'll get there.
Audience will get there. Okay. So let's see if you could send. One message back to the earlier Kathleen, the one more like in the deep traditional government law life, what would you tell her? Yeah, also, and like before I do that, there's nothing wrong with that traditional government law life, if you want that.
I've got so many colleagues, most of my legal professional colleagues who would be listening to that are probably in. So I just wanna make that really clear. But for me, in terms of what I wanted. I think the message is, what is it that you actually want the rules? I suppose the message would be that the rules that you think [00:36:00] exist are all made up
and at times, particularly when I'd stayed in a particular job up in Canberra a little too long, it felt like I was going through the cycles, right? Getting up, going to work back Canberra life that I had, its routines and habits that I could just float in and out of. I think that message would be, it's all made up.
So why would you live someone's made up rules and why wouldn't you explore and through asking yourself questions, discover what might be possible and what you can actually create. It's not to say that. Politics, our broader social environment, all of that is so important and it can restrict our opportunities in very real ways.
And it affects women, for example, and people of color in terms of the, like the glass ceilings, et cetera, that they've experienced. But that said, you can [00:37:00] grab hold of your agency too. So it's not to say that the broader context doesn't matter, but you do have agency recognize it and act on it. Yeah, sometimes we self, we create rules self imposed, you know, as we're like, we take the rules, run outside and this is it.
This is, that is no way out of that. Yeah. Like in the culture, we see that in our coaching, right? Yeah. What if it was, what if you could, if you had told me five years ago that at this point I would have. Co-founded a company with you, have spent a year and a half creating an online course, creating this dual masters in coaching psychology, which I'm partway through, work entirely remotely from Bayside, Melbourne, and work part-time, not as a public servant, but in a new model law firm.
I would've just laughed at you and said, that's ridiculous how. So I [00:38:00] hope it's the same in five years. I don't know. Absolutely. What sky is the limit now? So how did you first start to form the vision of the thriving lawyer, not just for yourself, because here we are sharing like five years how many changes and you've really created the thriving life that you wanted, that fitted your meaning, your values, and your strength.
But for the wider legal community as well with the Thriving Lawyer course. So how was that? How did you first start creating that vision? Yeah. When I first started coaching, the first kind of business idea that I had was more around coaching women. Right? And that I was professional women, and that was like, that's important to me because so many women.
Do come across those glass ceilings and the social constraints plus their own. It's a really important area, but what I began to realize is it was a little too broad and the people that I was coaching and the problems that I really wanted to address were [00:39:00] about the people that I knew being lawyers, like that's my profession.
It's been my profession for the last almost two decades, not quite, and. It's such a traditional profession. Yes, it's been changing some pockets more than others, but the degree of wellbeing issues, I would go so far as to say that there's without any doubt a wellbeing crisis in the law. We cite in the Thriving Lawyer course some really strong data from legal associations and bar associations, both in Australia, the US and more globally.
That back this up. The levels of mental illness in the profession, the culture of work hours, and a lot of pockets of it, all of those just mean that there are significant challenges in the legal profession. The profession needs to change, and I wanted to be a part of that and I recognize that this work contribute to it.
And I felt that the moment [00:40:00] was right from Covid onwards in the last several years where people are. Reassessing what it is that they want from their work. Also, all this global nonsense that's going on at the moment in terms of the broader political noise. I think it's such a profound period of uncertainty and anxiety that this kind of work is so important.
More important than ever. Yeah. What a beautiful reflection I could. It's moving to think about the ripple effect that. That can create, right? Thriving lawyers, thriving legal systems, community. Right. It's not just about the individual. That's a really good point actually to hold onto. I think that there has been a perception that somehow if you focus on your wellbeing, you are being selfish, that you will actually perform less at work.
Like I reckon if I talk to some of the alpha males in the legal profession. They would like initially be a bit skeptical, right? Because they would think, oh, [00:41:00] but if I take that time, I'm not gonna be doing my work and therefore I'm not gonna perform as well. Actually, it's the profound opposite of that.
This is the key to unlocking you and your performance, both as a lawyer but also in the rest of your life. Yeah. It always starts at individual level, like you who dare to imagine and build something better. It's easy to go. Well, yeah. I mean we all this, the group only exists as a bunch of individuals and then create something larger than itself.
But I think the other point I just wanna finish there, that goes onto, it's not just about the fact that it's key to your performance as a lawyer as well as the rest of your life, but that we need lawyers who are at their peak in this time of profound change. If you look at what's happening in the us, the whole legal system is in peril.
Now if we are going to have lawyers who can do their job effectively and can have that greater social role, which is so critical, [00:42:00] then you're gonna have to look after yourself too and not crash. There's a broader, there's a broader role for this, however smaller part of it is. Alright. Kathleen's story is such a brilliant example of what is possible when you started living alive on your own terms.
Right. So I guess from working with the systems that you had in place, feeling the pressure during the pandemic and then going into create a life with greater clarity, fulfillment for the things that are important to you. Health and the balance around the perma model. Positive emotions as a relationship.
There's such a powerful transformation. Didn't really happen by chance, like it took. Thoughtful steps, deep reflections, honest evaluations and persistent actions along the way. All of the skills and practice that we teach inside The Thriving Lawyer, as our program will be launching soon, and we help you [00:43:00] clarify your values, your strengths, build a clear and inspiring vision of your best possible self, help you set up goals and sustainable goals, and creating wellbeing practices using the PERMA model as well.
Also help you develop the mindset and the tools that you can keep thriving even through the challenges that come up. So I love that the course is science based, but it's not just theory, right? Like it's very practical. We really help you create the changes that you want. So if Kathleen's story like resonated with any of you and you were feeling like that you want to.
Something more than what you're doing. We'd love to invite you to join us in the Thriving Lawyer at this point in time. You can join our waiting list or sign up for our [email protected] au. And as always, Kathleen and I are more than happy to have answer any questions that you might have.
So Kathleen, thank you so much for being here today, for sharing your story so [00:44:00] openly and, and all that. So many people will see themselves in your store and feel inspired. To create some change, a sustainable change where it is possible. Yeah. So thank you everyone for listening. Thank you, Carla. Okay, thank you.
Thank you so much for listening to this episode of the thriving lawyer with Kathleen Brenner and Carla Ferraz, if you like it, please share it with your lawyer friends and colleagues, and tag us on Instagram at @thriving lawyer or on LinkedIn via the links in the show notes. And if you liked what you heard, please drop a review in apple podcasts.
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If you'd like to work with us, check out our free resources and our signature course, the thriving lawyer. Which you will find at www.thrivinglawyer.com.au. You can also download our free guide, the lawyer's [00:45:00] guide to thriving in 2025. A sustainable roadmap for success.
It's filled with great tips and ideas so that you can begin to make real change. You'll find the link to that in our show notes.
We hope this podcast has given you massive value. And that you can use it to begin to create your own thriving life. A life where you can thrive as a lawyer. And in the rest of your life.
