Kathleen: [00:00:00] So welcome to episode 11 of season two of the Thriving Lawyer with Kathleen Brenner and Carla Ferraz. We are so thrilled today to have two guests who are very eminent and have a lot of expertise that will, we think is going to be super relevant for lawyers.
So first of all, here, um, I'd like to introduce, um, professor c Christian Van Berg, who is an academic. Consultant and executive coach, and as Professor of Coaching and Positive Psychology, he leads the Center for Positive Health Sciences at R-C-I-S-I, university of Medicine and Health Sciences in Ireland, and in recognition of his contributions to the fields of positive psychology and coaching, he's principal Fellow of the Center of Wellbeing Science in my HO hometown at the Melbourne graduate.
School of Education of the University of me, um, yeah, university of Melbourne, Australia, and honorary collective [00:01:00] Ed fellow of the Carnegie School of Education at Leeds Beckett University uk. So welcome. We're thrilled to have you. We also have David Love. And David Love is a leadership coach with over 20 years of experience working with senior and middle managers in the uk.
Public services, for example, the NHS. He's also an experienced coach, supervisor, a mentor, and an educator. And before becoming independent in 2013, he was principal fellow at the office for public management, designing and leading projects with public service organizations focusing on organizational and lead leadership development.
Previous roles included teaching and senior leader. Leadership positions in the post 16 education sector and reflective practice is the heart of David's work, um, with his clients. And regular planned, reflective practice is a central FE feature [00:02:00] of a commitment to his own lifelong learning. So look, David Christian, welcome.
We are absolutely thrilled to have both of you. There's so much relevance. Um. Experience that will be of interest. So let's just get into it and. We were thinking when Carla and I were thinking, look, how would we open that? And I think just, you know, the best place is to give you both of an opportunity to just tell us a little bit more about yourselves, your work, and why you thought it was important to write.
This book, better Reflective Practice, which I have been reading, and I have to say, I'm in the midst of assignments for my Masters of Science in Coaching Psychology, and I'm doing the subjects that involve quite a bit of reflective practice. And so I have to say it's been an incredibly useful tool as I go about thinking about how I reflect.
I come to this very [00:03:00] interested from like the coaching level, but also as a practicing lawyer. But I'll hand it over to you perhaps. Um, well, Christian or David, whoever you'd like to start. Um,
Professor Christian van Nieuwerburgh: thank you so much Kathleen and Carla. First of all, we're so delighted to be here on your show. Episode two, uh, episode 11, series two.
How amazing. Thank you for having done so many of these. And, um, one thing I just want to say at the start is, um. Two things. One is David was my teacher, the person who taught me how to become a coach, so, so of course, similar to yours, Kathleen. And how lucky am I to get to work with David? We've written a couple of books together, in fact, around coaching, so that was such a treat.
And the other thing I just wanna start by saying how much I appreciate the listeners of this podcast. You know, they do such valuable work and so I think. What we're gonna talk about today, both reflective practice and wellbeing. They're [00:04:00] such important topics, so I'm just grateful to be here, David.
David Love: Yes, ditto.
You're really, really, really pleased to be here. And I think this is a really important initiative, the podcast series, but also the Wellbeing initiative that's been brought in, in, in Victoria, which, uh, chimes really well with what we're gonna be talking about today. 'cause, uh, one of the central ideas in our framework is, uh, exactly that, that, that we need to think about wellbeing both of ourselves and of our clients and the colleagues that we work with.
Um. You asked about why we wanted to write the book. I mean, we, we've both been involved in education for coaches and I think we were both quite surprised, uh, within that experience that clever experienced people, uh, who, you know, basically knew what they're doing and to doing a good job with coaching, still found it quite hard to, to.
Uh, engage in reflective practice and found it [00:05:00] even harder to write that up for assignment and credentialing purposes. So one of the reasons we wanted to write this book was to, to get a practical framework out there that people could use that had some theoretical basis, but was very practical and en enabled people to, to, to work through a process that would help 'em to do effective, reflective practice and to do it better.
Um, and I hope, I hope we've achieved that because that's one of the things that we set out to do. Um, I mean, another reason I was involved in this book, as Christian mentioned, we, um, we've written a book before about coaching together, and it was such a great experience. Um, we had, apart from the serious aspect of it, we had such a laughter, I wanted to do it again.
So we, we did it with this, uh, with this book as well.
Carla Ferraz: Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for the introduction and the motivation to write the book. You know, not only like sharing the reflective practices, but also having fun along [00:06:00] the way. You know? So beautiful. Um, working with friends. No, this is what we do here as well.
I mean, Kathleen, so reflective practice is such a powerful concept, like, and is really often misunderstood. Like you're, you are sharing with within the coaching world, but even like overlooked in professional settings. As well, um, as we know, like reflective practice has this potential to be such a transformative tool I know has been in my life, you know, since I started doing like more structured one, you know, deepest learning and, you know, and even like build resilience in a way because we get better at overcoming our own thoughts, you know, when, when we get to realize that they are there.
Um. But you know, yet many professionals either don't make time for it or maybe not even realize that it is a tool. It's, you know, something that you can really approach, intentionally, can sharpen your thinking, and it it really enhance like, you know, how you overcome challenges. So I just thought we could start with the basics.
Um, [00:07:00] how do we define reflective practice? It can go either way, David or Christian.
Professor Christian van Nieuwerburgh: Well, Carla, thank you for that, uh, uh, yeah, positioning of it. It is so crucial. And so I'll start by very simply going over what is reflective practice, and then maybe David, you could explain how effective, reflective practice might be different.
David Love: More
Professor Christian van Nieuwerburgh: complicated,
David Love: you mean?
Professor Christian van Nieuwerburgh: Yeah. You do the more complicated stuff. The reflective practice. Uh, for me it's a pretty simple concept, and that is the words tell, give us a lot of clues here. Um, there's the, the taking time to think, uh, and reflect, uh, about our practice. So that's, uh, an important part of it.
But really reflective practice refers to, uh, reflecting on our thinking and then making a change. As a result of that [00:08:00] thinking. So that's, that's all that reflective practice is. But Carla, you mentioned something so important, the difference between structured. Reflective practice, which is what is advocated.
And there's many people who have written models around reflective practice, Gibbs, for example, or kb. Um, um, and so this idea of, um, thinking about something and then, uh, uh, making a change, if we do it in a structured way. We think that adds a lot of value to professionals if we do it in an unstructured way, which we probably all do because, you know, if we've had a, a bad interaction with someone, we do spend time thinking about it.
So we're reflecting on it, but sometimes we're not doing it in a structured way so that we can take the positive learning from that and learn about how to deal with it in the future. So for me, that's what reflective practice is. It's thinking about. [00:09:00] Kind of your professional, uh, experiences, interactions, uh, thinking about if you're achieving what you want through those interactions.
And then if you are not, uh, um, thinking about what do I need to learn so that those interactions are experiences can be better. Hmm.
David Love: Yeah. And of course I agree with all of that. Um, and, um. I, I think it's not always about thinking. It's not always, it's not always about sitting and doing the kind of Rodan sculpture thing.
Um, yes, that's a, that's a key part of it. Um, but we talked to quite a few people when we were writing the book about how they go about reflective practice and um, a lot of them found it quite hard to explain how they did it 'cause it was such a natural thing they did it so well. Um, but it often involved ways of switching off the thinking.
I. Um, and one of the things that I've got really involved in in recent years, bringing it in from my private [00:10:00] life, is using art in coaching and artists, getting clients to, to create an image of, of some form. However simple or however complex, switches off the thinking brain and switches on. The emotions.
People talk more freely about their, how they feel about things when they're creating and, and talking about an an image. So yes, the thinking is absolutely in there, uh, and, and, uh, and, and needs to be a, a, a structure around that. Um, and it's also about switching that off sometimes. Um, and sometimes, you know, if I'm writing something with Christian, um.
I'm getting stuck with the, with what I want to write down. I might go for a walk and I'm not necessarily thinking about the issue anymore, but something will start to pop into my brain that, that, that begins to clarify what I was stuck with without having kind of deliberately focused on it. So you can be deliberate and focus on things in a very [00:11:00] clear, intentional way, and you can allow.
Stuff to happen, you know, create the space for things to just emerge. Uh, and that's one of the beauties I think of our framework is that we, yes, we've provided a structure in the book and it's, it's, uh, we think it's a really powerful and practical one. Um, but we encourage people to find their own way of using it.
And to be flexible with it, it's not, it's not meant as a rigid mechanical script that you have to work through. Um, once you've got it under your belt as a process, you can use it way more flexibly and, you know, miss bits out, put the bits in. Be very creative about how you go about it.
Kathleen: Can I just mirror back with some reflections and, um, what comes to mind for me is that this, what I'm hearing there is these two really different and powerful elements. One is that process of act of the thinking and the [00:12:00] reflection, the active cognition pro kind of process that you have, which. When you described it, what came to mind was, you know, I remember in our studies coming across sort of Anthony Grant's, I think it was Anthony Grant's arguments around the different kinds of reflection, the active self-reflection and not being, um, rumination, the risk of rumination if it wasn't that kind of productive, that this process really enables you.
But also what you're talking about there is the freedom to. To be creative and express yourself or disconnect from the thinking in the moment, um, in order to really look after your wellbeing and actually get the more creative kind of reflection is, is that. Right.
David Love: Yeah. Yeah, that's absolutely right. And, and we're also talking about, as other writers have, have talked about, it's not a, a new idea obviously, but, but we can reflect on things that have happened.
So looking backwards, [00:13:00] we can reflect forwards to, to think about things that might happen or, or going to happen and we need to get ready for them. Um, and. We can also, I mean, particularly as coaches, we can also reflect in the moment and that that's, uh, we, in coaching, you'll know we talk about internal supervisor.
Um, that's, that's the kind of aspect of your internal supervisor. So all professionals, including lawyers, uh, need really to be able to be doing some of that. It's quite, quite difficult to do, obviously all the time, but, but if you can, if you can practice reflective practice. Looking backwards and looking forwards, you will get, you become more adept at being able to do it in the moment.
Um, and being able to do it in the moment as a coach, as a lawyer, I think is, is, is really powerful. 'cause you are, you are kind of monitoring what you're doing and, and reviewing what you're doing and changing it as you go. As I say, it's quite difficult to do that. It's not, not simple, but you can get to that position.[00:14:00]
Yeah,
Kathleen: so you've started to already introduce the, the, the next question that I, that I had, but perhaps we can go into a bit more detail, which is, um, around, you know, with that definition of reflective practice in mind, why it does matter for professionals and, you know, you know, if we were talking about professionals generally, but thinking from my own experience with, you know, 17, 18 years as a practicing lawyer.
I know how easy it is to get incredibly busy with the flow of, you know, constant matters and demands and, you know, just doesn't seem to end sometimes. And, and that can face a real challenge. And you know, we mentioned before, we, we press record. David in particular, that lawyer Wellbeing Systems Theory of Change, that's just been introduced by the Victorian Legal Services Board and commissioner where I'm, where I'm based now.
What [00:15:00] is intriguing about that? I have no connection with that. I, in fact, I'm, you know, I'm a regulated lawyer in that jurisdiction, but I was thrilled to discover this new theory that came out and that was released by the commissioner because at, at its heart, it was all about addressing lawyer wellbeing on multiple levels and.
Reflective practice was placed at the very heart of that. Now, I've never heard that in all my years of practice. I've never heard this idea of reflective practice being acknowledged. I've heard about people getting coached to improve their leadership or their performance or their wellbeing, but not this other idea.
So I'm just curious from your perspective as to, you know, this book seems to have a number of audiences, coaches, but then professionals more broadly. You know what, what's, why does this matter for professionals to put it simply?
Professor Christian van Nieuwerburgh: Yeah. Thank you Kathleen. Uh, it um, and uh, our [00:16:00] book, we've called it effective reflective Practice because we're adding a number of dimensions to existing.
I. Reflective practice. And one of the reasons we call it effective is because of, uh, its focus on wellbeing. So, uh, one of our principles is that we go into effective, reflective practice with, uh, compassion compassion's a key part of the process. And the compassion has two components. One is compassion to self, but also compassion for clients and the people that we work with.
But why is it so important, particularly for lawyers? I think, you know, lawyers are people who are, who think for a living, that's one of the things they do. So they're already good at the reflecting and the analyzing. And, uh, we hope that adding a structure in the way we do means that, um, uh, lawyers and other professionals are able to, um, be [00:17:00] quite intentional.
About the kind of service they want to provide to others. And Kathleen, the other main thing I just wanted to note is, you know, professor Tony Grant, he was one of my mentors as well, so he supported me with my own. Reflective practice. And so, uh, I think this, uh, bringing the systemic lens to this, which is something Professor Grant was talking about, is so important as well.
And even, um, you know, thinking, uh, more broadly like that. Um, so that lawyers can provide the kind of service they do. Uh, there is a kind of a societal need for. Lawyers to look after their own wellbeing. So we think that's a really important part of the model. And, and, um, you know, you talked about, uh, rumination, that's actually dangerous.
I. And so if people are doing it in little, you know, [00:18:00] snatch time between things, it's more likely that we end up focusing on what didn't work well, starting to doubt ourselves or be overly critical. That's a reason that this has to be structured so that people can think and engage with their practice in a way that's good for them.
And for the people that they serve. So I think those are some of the key reasons that, uh, you know, um, structured, reflective practice is important for professionals. David, do you want to add something?
David Love: Yeah, I'm just, um, I think we might have been before we started, but we were sort of alluding to the idea that it's not something that's.
That's common or frequently? Uh, around in most organizations. I mean, certainly in the consultancy work I did, I worked with lots of public sector organizations in the uk and um, it wasn't a feature of what people did. I, you know, with big generalization, but I. [00:19:00] Generally wasn't the future of what people did.
And I think there's a huge systemic and kind of cultural aspect to this that, that that kind of deadens the possibility of it, of it happening for people. 'cause it feels like a luxury. It feels like, you know, um, uh, you are, you are away thinking in your ivory towers somewhere about something and it's not, not very practical.
Um. And of course as, as we've said several times, lawyers and other professionals are really busy people. Um, and so it can be difficult for them individually to find the time, but also the system doesn't say, make the time.
Professor Christian van Nieuwerburgh: Mm-hmm. And.
David Love: One of the things we know from, from our own reflective, and I certainly know from my reflective practice, which I do a lot, um, obviously, um, it makes a massive difference to your, not just your ability to do something well, but to your wellbeing, um, to your ability to show up and be present in the right kinda way with the people that you're working with, colleagues or, or clients.
Um, [00:20:00] and it, it, it lifts you. It's, it's a positive. Uplifting thing, um, to do it. Um, and as Christian has just mentioned, it's, it's not just about focusing on the things that didn't work, which is often where we will go to, as, as he said, uh, it, we should be reflecting very intentionally about things that have gone really well.
Professor Christian van Nieuwerburgh: Mm-hmm.
David Love: Then we'll find out why they worked and we'd be able to replicate that in other situations. And that's, that's, that's very motivating and uplifting.
Professor Christian van Nieuwerburgh: Yeah. And that's the warm and fuzzy thing Kathleen and Carla that, uh, both David and I are drawn to is people are gonna be, uh, feeling better, people are going to feel more fulfilled, they're gonna experience more meaningful work.
And I want to put alongside that, that, um, you know, if, if somebody's gonna call themselves a professional, I'm gonna be really challenging here. I think professionals have a responsibility [00:21:00] to continually enhance their practice, right? So that's, for me, part of the definition of being a professional is that you're always engaged in, uh, uh, you know, professional development.
And for us, uh, effective, reflective practice is a really personalized and clearly structured way of doing that. And just a little anecdote, if I may. I used to do quite a lot of work in the Middle East with senior leaders in organizations. And uh, one question I would ask is, how often during the week do you set aside, you know, a couple of hours just to reflect on how well you're doing?
And you know, people burst out laughing. They're like, well, we haven't got time to be doing that. We're busy professionals. We're out there all the time. And that's one of the reasons I think executive coaching. Has become very popular because that is kind of earmarked time. So if a leader has in their diary executive coaching, [00:22:00] well that's time earmarked for, I would argue for reflective practice.
Effective reflective practice is another way of doing that that can be done in by oneself with others or in group settings. So it's another mechanism for ensuring that there's time and space for, uh, reflective practice.
David Love: Yes, that's just reminded me. I worked in an organization where the chief exec on a Monday morning from nine till 10 would lock his office door that he had glass door.
You could see him and he'd just sit at his desk. Apparently doing nothing. And he found that such a powerful way of getting into the week. Then marshaling, you know, what he had to do and thinking about the priorities. But he was, you know, you get short shift. If he went up and knocked on his door between nine and 10 on a Monday morning, 'cause that was the time.
I dunno whether he caught it reflective practice, but that's what he was doing and it worked, really worked for him. [00:23:00]
Carla Ferraz: It's so transformative. Like I always say when in my coaching that coaching is a self-reflective practice. Yeah. Like you are doing with someone. And I always say like, well, one thing that if I can leave you with that, you continue your coaching time and don't need to be there as a coach.
You can, you can be your own coach. Can you keep this going? I always invite my clients to keep the coaching time there, the appointment there, but they can coach themselves, you know? Wonderful. Yes,
David Love: absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, what is coaching. Other than reflective practice, absolutely support it. And a lot
Carla Ferraz: of the times is what you mentioned, Dave, it's creating space for that to exist in your life.
Mm-hmm. And it is like I, I mean, I know that I have started doing probably, you know, a couple of years ago, and it's transformative. You actually can solve all your problems like. You sit down and you come up with something to try. Right. That is experimentation, right. That cycle. Absolutely. Um, and maybe we would like to [00:24:00] discuss this, the cycle part, right?
Like you described that, um, in, in your book, that effect an effective, you know, um, refractive drives. It is a, it's a cycle and it has many stages, right? So we are setting the intention, having goals, experimenting, reviewing. And then adapting again. Um, so I, I was just wondering like how realistic, um, can we, well maybe if you could give like some practical ways to actually use that cycle for professionals.
Professor Christian van Nieuwerburgh: David, do you want to talk about Yeah.
David Love: Yeah. I mean the, the. The, the kind of image that we put up here in from the book is, um, uh, which Christian put together, uh, really well. Uh, we, we, we struggled a long time to get to this kind of image because we wanted something that was, that suggested, the fluidity and, um, uh, fluidity of the process that we wanted to describe and, and that we didn't wanna see it as a [00:25:00] kind of linear thing.
It's the step one, step two, step three. It does have an order to it, but as you can see from the diagram, they kind of interlink it, uh, uh, as the process goes on. So we talk about a cycle of effective reflective practice being something. The cycle is, is a focus on, on a particular thing that you want to explore.
Um, and we see that as this cycle going round. Um, and the starting point for that. And it, it, as you could see from the purple. Uh, arrow. It's all the way through, but the starting point for this is to have a positive intention about what you want to, to, to be doing. Um. So that you establish from the very beginning before you even think about outcomes or goals or where you're headed, you've, you've got some clear sense of, of where you might want to go.
Um, with, with, uh, with this process. I mean, just thinking about lawyers, one thing that, that's obviously really [00:26:00] important, um, I realize this from the advice work that I used to do that. Listening to people. I, I think when I was an advice worker many, many years ago, it, it kind of started me honing my listening skills, which have now led on into me being a coach and a, and a supervisor.
But if we take, um, uh, a lawyer, for instance, thinking about. Listening, they might decide that their positive intention is to listen more accurately in order to better understand their client's situation and, and obviously then respond, uh, to that. So that's their positive intention to listen more accurately in order to better understand client's situation.
That then leads on to thinking about, well, what's the outcome that I want to achieve? And here we are very, very focused on what's the outcome for. Others, what's the outcome for clients? What, what are the, what's the outcome here for the, the, the lawyer's clients? Um, and that might be crafted along the lines of, um, [00:27:00] clients will feel more confident in me as a, as a professional lawyer.
Um. And, uh, that, that's really helpful. 'cause they'll, they'll probably open up a bit more. Um, and, uh, for, for me, as the lawyer, it might, uh, an outcome could be that, um, I, I craft better legal responses to the client's situation and, and, uh, take that forward effectively. So then we move into the next stage of, of this cycle, which is planning.
Um. And, uh, the lawyer with that positive intention, with that outcome about listening, um, more attentively, they might decide that part of the plan is to research into listening a bit more and read some books about that. Um, and they might think that, um. If they're clearer about their intention when they're listening to, to people, uh, the clearer with clients about what, what, why they're listening, what they're listening for, then that might strengthen the [00:28:00] relationship with the client and strengthen the, the, the level of, of connection.
So then as part of the plan, we encourage people to come up with hypotheses about. Uh, what they could do that, that, that would have, would make a difference. 'cause we're about making a change here. And that leads to what kind of experiment like, uh, we, we put in place. So for this lawyer, it might be their hypothesis might be, um, if they're clearer about why they're listening to somebody and they express that to clients, people will open up more and feel a stronger connection to them and, and, and give them.
More kind of complex detail about the situation that they're involved in. So they, we then go on into experimenting and testing that hypothesis and the lawyer then, uh, will try that out, see how it works, and the experiment phase, the experimentation phase moves into review and [00:29:00] thinking about how that's worked.
Um. And if it's worked well, the lawyer might decide that, uh, having been clearer has kind of helped set the scene with the client, um, being clearer about their, their intentions for listening, why they're listening. Um, I. Gives, gives, uh, the possibility of more detailed conversations. That's, that's been their experience perhaps.
And then through that, in the center of this process, which again, obviously goes on all the time, there are learning and insights to be drawn from that review. Um, and the lawyer might decide that their openness, um, uh, as, as they've seen that as a strength, um, and that they can use this more productively when they work with clients to build stronger relationships and therefore work more effectively.
Professor Christian van Nieuwerburgh: Thanks, David. That's great. Uh, really good overview of the model. And, you know, um, there's a lot of, uh, positive psychology theories, uh, that underpin this model as well. [00:30:00] And one of the ideas is for professionals to feel more aligned is good for their wellbeing. So really remembering, well, what is the positive intention for all this effort I'm putting in?
That's helpful for professionals because then we feel, uh, more aligned to that work. The other thing is this idea of connecting with, uh, meaning and purpose or. Um, uh, uh, motivation, intrinsic motivation. These things are also good for wellbeing. So the model is designed in a way that it does focus on outcomes for others, because we talked already about rumination or what some people would call naval gazing.
It's possible for us to spend a lot of time reflecting how would I like to be, what do I want to do? But without making sure that we're, we're thinking about, so what's going to be different for the people that we serve, our colleagues, even our family and [00:31:00] friends? Uh, then it's not effective reflective practice because effective reflective practice should lead to change.
That's really one of the measures. Is it working? Is. Yeah, there's some positive change occurring as a result of all the time I'm spending thinking about my professional role. And my argument is we're all thinking a lot about our professional roles, but I would say more focused, uh, ringfence time for this reflective practice increases the chances of us making desired behavior change that's good for us and for others.
David Love: Yeah, absolutely.
Kathleen: I can see that being of such central deep relevance. And I just wanted to highlight an additional thing that I think is unique about lawyers that could make this even more useful too, is the fact that, you know, you've spoken about wellbeing so [00:32:00] powerfully there. Um. There's a lot of research around the wellbeing of lawyers that looks at one of the key blockers and some of those, or some of those blockers.
Are around the fact that lawyers are one of the only professions, perhaps the only one, but maybe let's just say one of the only that are actually trained for our pessimism And ask you want your lawyers to be when they're analyzing legal risk, bringing a particular mindset. If your lawyer was, you know, pollyannaish, you might not get very good legal advice, so you probably wouldn't engage that lawyer.
And the other thing about lawyers is we're often trained for our perfectionism, and that is rewarded. There's a, there's a lot of commentary in the sector around, from the very early stages of our professional practice, those kind of practices. And you could see how that could come about with obsession and [00:33:00] the art of.
Getting the perfect language or argument to describe something, the perfect advice, the brief, there's a lot of competition that goes along with that. So I think here that that risk of rumination is so strong mm-hmm. Because of those pressures. So just like my reflections or, or thinking about my experience as a lawyer is, I think that, that having that structure.
So, 'cause it is highly structured at the same time, it's not complicated in the sense that you can easily go through each stage. Yeah.
Professor Christian van Nieuwerburgh: Yeah. And Kathleen, I have a, a, a suggestion here because this is the whole idea. The reason we hand drew the model is really to convey, it's flexible here. This is a proposed way of doing it.
People can use it flexibly, but in this scenario, because of the perfectionism or the tendency. [00:34:00] Towards, you know, pessimism be being rewarded. Uh, my recommendation is that lawyers might work with one another. So the model works really well in partnership as well. So, David and I, for example, could work together on my.
Reflective practice where I would explain to David, look, this is my positive intention, he'd ask me some questions. And the reason for that is that we're often, uh, uh, more caring and compassionate to people we care about than we are with ourselves. So if. You know, let's say two lawyers are working together and the one lawyer is providing just that support, just listening, highlighting positives, highlighting what, uh, successes are there.
My kind of message is if we could each talk to ourselves the way that we would talk to a, a valued colleague or a friend, that can [00:35:00] be transformative and people have often asked me. Well, I don't know how. What is self-compassion? How can I be compassionate to myself? I think it's possible to train compassion.
When we look at others. So we train ourselves to be compassionate when working with colleagues, friends, and then once we've developed that skill, we turn it inward. So our, our question could always be, how would I talk to my friend about a similar situation or a similar developmental need? And, and finally, I just want to highlight that.
Uh, you know, as I've said before, lawyers are trained thinkers. They're just so fantastic at figuring things out, putting together arguments. So they've got some excellent skills they're bringing to reflective practice. They're trained thinkers, so I think it could be transformational.
Kathleen: Hmm. So with that in mind, [00:36:00] you know, you can just imagine, I, I'm thinking about my day today.
You know, I did lawyering, I do lawyering part-time and coaching and study the rest of the time, and today was one of my lawyering days and I. Suddenly there was an advice that was relatively urgent that I was rushed to kind of get done. And I was stressed a little bit 'cause I'm like, oh goodness me, I've got this interview.
I need to get this draft done. In fact, I had a conversation to allow me myself flexibility with that. But, but you know, it is just one of those days where you get caught up and I can just see that lawyers might object a little bit and kind of say, um. I'm getting, I, I'm busy, I'm too busy. Like, how, how can I integrate this into, or maybe let me even say, how can I begin to even experiment with integrating this into my practice?
What might you say to such a lawyer?
Professor Christian van Nieuwerburgh: Yeah. [00:37:00] I love, I I, I'd love to chat with those lawyers and I know they can come to the Thriving lawyer for one thing, for some coaching, which would be incredibly helpful, I think. And the reason I say this is I'm caring about the lawyer, you know, so e, even if they're resisting and saying, well, I haven't got time.
Christian, in your fantasy world, this is great. But this is what my day looks like. I'd still want to talk to them and kind of connect with them. And, you know, I travel a lot for my work and so, um, sometimes I don't have the luxury to sit down in a room for two hours with a piece of paper and a pen. But, uh, sometimes I'm sitting in an airport lounge and I'm, I can break this down into stages in an airport lounge.
I'm thinking, what is my positive intention? All it takes is an iPad or a little notepad, and I'm just kind of jotting down what's some one thing that I think if I were to improve [00:38:00] this one thing, it would make a real difference to my client. So I would just jot that down and then, you know, on the flight, maybe I.
I've got a pen and paper and I'm just thinking, okay, well what if I'm able to do that one thing? What's different? So one idea is to break this down into small steps. The other is to use it when we're having other types of professional conversations as well. So this model also can work in a group setting.
So imagine there's a group, group of lawyers. Just wanting to reflect on, look, we, we want to be better, even better than we are, so what sort of things can we do? I can imagine a facilitated group conversation. It could take 45 minutes where we could just go through that cycle once and what David said earlier.
Once we get this cycle kind of happening more naturally, it does become second nature. And some of the most experienced, [00:39:00] reflective practitioners we talked to, they were doing this all the time. One of the people there, uh, uh, an international speaker was saying that when they're giving their presentation, they would already be doing a little bit of, okay, that's something I need to be thinking about next time.
So it can really become integrated in. How we work all the time. We can do it on the train home. We can just be starting to jot things up. So I would argue that making some time for this will have a positive impact on the rest of your professional life.
David Love: Yeah. It's a kind of investment. Um, and I think, I think it's, it's, don't think about it as, as too big an ask.
Um, as Christian said, you can break it down, but, but. I mean, I would suggest that people just take half an hour a week, 20 minutes a week and sit down with something. It doesn't have to be a massive topic. It can be, you know, you can use this [00:40:00] cycle to this framework to, to look at something that's really quite.
Big and complex. On the other hand, you can take a very, very simple, straightforward thing, um, something about your day that's coming up, uh, and, and use this process in, you know, 15, 20 minutes. Um, and as Christians illustrated using it with somebody else, either one-to-one or in, in a group that, that needs a bit more time, obviously, but, but.
But, you know, chatting to a colleague and using this process together, knocking some ideas about, um, and even if you don't finish the process, you know, something will, something will happen. There'll be some learning that will happen. Um, and once, once you realize that that can happen, you'll, you'll start to think, well, perhaps I should do this and more.
Kathleen: Thank you for so beautifully addressing that lawyer's objections. Um, yeah, it is very practical that I think that that's a good place to move [00:41:00] to the next sort of theme that we wanted to explore. What I was really, um, enjoyed coming to the chapter in the book that was about organizations, because you know, so far we've talked about the individual lawyer and how they can integrate that.
Of course. The ability and space to do that can be really impacted by culture, of course, of the organization. So curious to get your thoughts on how, you know, I'm thinking of legal practices of all kinds, you know, whether they're law firms or in-house. Whatever they look like barristers even. Um, I mean, they work a bit more individually, but they're still in chambers.
But how can organi like legal employers, teams, organizations, perhaps take steps to provide the right environment for people to engage in this sort of reflection?
David Love: I, I think one key thing is about [00:42:00] leadership. Mm-hmm. Um, senior leaders in, in those organizations, uh, realizing that reflective practice is a vital aspect of professional development. And, um, saying that loud and clear and creating opportunities for people to do it and, and to, and for people to see them doing it.
I mean, a bit like my chief exec example that, you know, it was quite obvious what he was doing. Um, and he talked about what he was doing in, in meetings. Um, so I think there's, there's a starting point with the senior people to, to get on board with the idea that this is really vital and important and to begin to create the conditions for it to happen.
Yeah. And can't give people permission to take a little bit of time out on occasion.
Professor Christian van Nieuwerburgh: Yeah. Uh, can I give a a, a real example from one of my leaders who's recently retired, professor Kiran o [00:43:00] Boyle. Um, he, uh, directed the center that I worked in the Center for Positive Health Sciences. And, um, you know, one time when he was taking a, uh, uh, annual leave for a week, he said to the team, he said, look, I'm gonna be on annual leave for a week, and I'm not taking my laptop.
And, you know, that little, um, indication that was so liberating for the rest of us, it was a very clear message that when you are on annual leave, you can take time off. So there's lots of small things that I. Leaders and anybody in an organization can do by role modeling some of these wellbeing behaviors and I, I'm sure that any organization or entity that could be explicit to say, look, we're interested in you performing at your best.
I. And we're interested in your wellbeing, if we can convey that message, it comes back to the name of your [00:44:00] organization, the Thriving Lawyer. Uh, we all want that. We all want, uh, lawyers who are thriving or flourishing. And so then thinking about is the environment we're in conducive to that? And there'll be policies, there'll be ways of interacting, uh, that support this idea that everyone's wellbeing is important and there'll be some that are getting in the way of that.
So identifying those, making small changes. Uh, one thing, um, I I've seen in an organization is, you know, just cutting down the Zoom meeting lengths. To 45 minutes or 50 minutes. That was an intentional change and the organization said, from now on, let's make sure all meetings are scheduled for 50 minutes.
But they explained the intention as well. The intention is so that you're not gonna back to back meetings. You have 10 minutes when you can pop out for a drink or something. So those [00:45:00] uh, signs, places where people can meet to say, Hey, that place. Times that are allocated for reflective practice. I think there's many small things that don't, you know, require huge changes in structure or huge investments that will start to show that in this place I.
We care about your professional performance and we have an interest in your wellbeing. And I'm not, again, this isn't a soft and fuzzy thing. We do have an interest in the wellbeing of our people because if they're burnt out, if they're on sick leave, if we have to go out and recruit somebody else, that's got a huge.
Cost to it beyond the personal cost. So I think there's many arguments for organizations to really embrace this idea of reflective practice. And I'm really pushing it here. I know, but it's like a double win. If an organization is saying, we're gonna create time for reflective [00:46:00] practice, you're actually creating time for professional development and growth that's actually going to be good for the wellbeing of your uh, team members.
David Love: I'm gonna push it even further. 'cause I think
organizations will often say the right things and write the right things in policies and missions and value statements, all the rest of it. It's got to be followed through. It's got to be the lived experience of the people in the organization that this is really what is happening. Um. I think, I mean, you mentioned culture, Kathleen.
I mean, one of the, one of the things that's a real killer of reflective practice is, is fear of judgment. And, and from what you've been saying, I suspect that in the lawyering world there's a bigger sense of that. Possibly than, um, in other places 'cause of the competition and, and the, the kind of individual aspect of it, um, being perhaps [00:47:00] more prioritized.
Um, so I think, you know, culturally organizations need to shift and they need, they need to really make the shift, not just say stuff. Um, you need to go on and do it.
Professor Christian van Nieuwerburgh: Can I just jump in with a, another real example, I won't name the organization or the country because this isn't a great example, but there was an organization that said, Hey Christian, we'd like you to come do some work around positive psychology because, you know, we're an organization that values the wellbeing of our people, and that's kind of, you know, top priority for us.
Like David said, it was in all the, um, you know, the. The mission statements and, and those documents. Then I went to this organization, I pop in to see the person at reception and you know, I was there to meet somebody, but I went to the person at reception. I said, Hey, what's it like to work here? And they're like, oh my goodness.
You know? Um, this reception area had big [00:48:00] electric, uh, doors that kind of just opened like this. And it meant that the person where they were sitting. They were cold all the time 'cause the door kept opening because they're freezing. And they said, have a look at this. There's a tiny little electric heater with one, you know, little light across under their, their desk.
And they were like, I'm freezing all the time here. And it was so interesting because this was an organization that said, we're all about the wellbeing of our people. And the first person I bump into, you know, is saying, well, nobody's really paying attention to my. You kind of basic need to stay, stay warm.
So, uh, I really love the, I've often been asked how do we know we're doing well? Whe when it comes to the wellbeing of our people, my answer is always just ask them, Hey, how are we doing? Even asking people. Uh, how's your wellbeing if you're prepared to follow up? Like David says, just asking them [00:49:00] is already going to have a positive impact, but asking people and they're not doing anything actually has the opposite outcome, which is why I'm not a big fan of these surveys.
You know, there there's many organizations that have done quick wellbeing surveys. There's no point asking your people about their wellbeing if you're not gonna do something about it. But if you can match the two things, ask them. And do something. And for me it's the tiniest things. It's the smallest little changes can really indicate, uh, an interest.
I mean, one organization I worked with, they were cutting costs, so they said, we're thinking of cutting the, there's free coffee on the third floor or something. We're gonna cut that. I said, that's the last thing you need to cut. You know, so the thing, the small things that show that, uh. The employer cares about its team and the employer does.
The employer should. So I think, uh, that's my little rant. Anyway, [00:50:00] thanks David for kicking it off. You got me started.
Carla Ferraz: Yeah. Thank you. I mean, I really hope that reflective practice is one day in, in, in, in the cooperations, the organization like coaching is today. Like nobody doubts that as active coach, you know, creates a positive impact on the employees.
That's like. You know, and I hope reflective practice get there one day and I'm sure you two are, you know, thank you for the work that you are doing. You know, bringing the science and then just going around as well, saying like, well look, this is effective. This is really good. It can really, yeah. Increase your wellbeing, you know, and you, it can, you know, you'll be more profitable in the end of as well because you, you know, retention and, and all the things.
Um, so I'd just love to, to tap into like coaching, like, like how, how would we, like you're both leading figures in, in the coaching world. Um, so how do you think the reflective [00:51:00] practice and coaching together, um. Might be combined, you know, to, to enhance even more the, the like, because where, where I'm coming from, like when we think about coaching, there is that unique ability to both support and challenge individuals, right?
Like to, and help them sort of stretch beyond the comfort zones and, and get deeper insights and in many case create like lasting changes. Um, so how do you see them both, um, supporting each other or maybe complimenting each other?
David Love: Well, I think we said earlier that, um, uh, coaching is really a, a form of facilitated, reflective practice.
That's what we're encouraging our coaching clients to do when, when, when we're working with them. So I think in that respect, coaches are facilitators of that, of, of that process. Um, and I think, and, and I don't want this to sound like we're suggesting, this is a coaching model. We're far from that. [00:52:00] But I think there are elements of the process and elements of the principles and purposes that sit behind it, that Christine was talking about earlier, that, that are very, very valuable in, in coaching.
If, for instance, we, we were coaching someone, we got 'em to think about their positive intention for why they were thinking about what they were thinking about and doing what they're doing. Then I think that would, that would add to the coaching process that would really help people to think, think about their starting point.
Um, why am I, why am I doing this? And that, that leads to a connection to people's values and emotions as well, and values and beliefs. Um. 'cause it gives, it gives a possibility for those to, to start to emerge. Which, which may and probably are, um, very important in the, in the process of the coaching and the topic that they're, they're focusing on.
Um, so I think, and I mean I wanna stress again that we're not suggesting, 'cause I know coaches in our experience, coaches can kind of leap on or is a, a new [00:53:00] tool. I don't like that word 'cause it. It's too mechanistic, um, that there's, there's a terrible danger that people leap to that. I, I, I'm not suggesting that that's what it becomes.
I'm suggesting that there are parts of it that can be used, uh, as a process that would help to structure a coaching conversation.
Professor Christian van Nieuwerburgh: And Carla, they're also very complimentary, you know, organizations that embrace reflective practice. We'll obviously see the value of coaching and organizations that have already embraced coaching already see the value of reflective practice, and there's also ways that two can connect.
You know, if I'm going through a reflective practice process, maybe when I get to the plan stage, I think, well, I, I want to work with a coach on this. The coach is gonna help me plan, and I've already done a lot of thinking. I know what my intention is, I know what the outcome is. So I might, uh, work with a coach around, well, how can I plan something?
So I think they're, they're very complimentary and both. [00:54:00] Interventions can be used to, to bring more balance to people's professional lives. That's the thing I'm most passionate about now. Carla is not assuming that coaching is always about the next thing and adding something and doing something new. I think sometimes coaching should be just about finding greater balance in our lives.
Making sure that we are more aligned, uh, you know, making sure that, um, we're taking into account our own wellbeing as well as the wellbeing of those around us. So, uh, I think they're both really powerful tools that, that they're, and you know, again, for the listeners here, um, who might be a bit skeptical about this, I would say that both coaching and reflective practice.
Are actually designed, their design is to support others to, you know, to flourish. So these are positive intention, positively intentioned [00:55:00] interventions. And so even if you're a little bit doubtful or skeptical, I would say just give. Give it a try. Either have a coaching conversation. See how that goes, or engage in a cycle of, uh, reflective practice.
And if it's not working for you, I would say don't do it. I, I don't want to waste your time either, but I do think please give it a try because my, uh, hope is that it could be transformational. It could be that one conversation that really helps to change a way of thinking and engaging with our professional worlds.
David Love: Yeah, absolutely.
Kathleen: So beautifully summed up there. Um, that's a really good spot for perhaps to wind up without just one final thing that we'll put out there, which is simply, is there anything else, whether it's advice or some final remarks that you'd like [00:56:00] to, you know, leave our listeners with?
Professor Christian van Nieuwerburgh: Yeah, I mean, my, my, uh, final remark is just to appreciate the listeners, so thank you for, you know, I'm already happy that you're listening to this.
That's already part of the process and, um, uh, I'm, uh, I'm really hopeful that these kinds of ways of working, uh, we'll be beneficial to you and, and those around you.
David Love: Thank you. Yeah, and for those reasons, I'd just like to underline again, give it a go. Give it a try. What's to be lost? What's to be lost?
Plenty to be gained.
Kathleen: Well, thank you. Thank you both. We've really appreciated it.
David Love: Thank you. Thank you for inviting us. Thank you. Been really good.
