[00:00:00] Kathleen: You are listening to The Thriving Lawyer with Kathleen Brenner and Carla Ferraz. I'm Kathleen, a highly experienced lawyer and an International Coaching Federation accredited coach.
[00:00:13] Carla: And I am Carla. Like Kathleen, I am an ICF certified coach and I have worked with top leaders and professionals, many of them lawyers, at some of the world's biggest organizations.
My focus is on using evidence based approaches to help my clients thrive at work and in the rest of their lives. Together,
[00:00:35] Kathleen: we bring you the Thriving Lawyer podcast, a podcast filled with ideas and inspiration, as well as practical tips to help you thrive as a lawyer and in the rest of your
life. Let's get into it.
Welcome to episode 13 of the Thriving Lawyer with Kathleen Brenner and Carla Ferraz. I'm Kathleen and I've got Carla with me, and today we're gonna shift our focus a little bit. Over the last couple of weeks, we have been exploring all things reflective practice. First with our interview with Professor Christian Van Newberg and David Love.
Then Carla and I reflecting on what we'd learnt. So really engaging in that reflective practice about reflective practice. And what is so useful about that reflective practice is takes you deeper into really thinking about what's going well, what needs to change, and then you have this structured process around exploring what actions that you're going to take and then test things out with the spirit of experimentation, which is ultimately what coaching is all about. So today what we wanna do is shift that move to thinking about change and in particular, readiness for change because we see it all the time, don't we, Carla? Where you'll have somebody who says they wanna change, but then nothing happens, nothing changes, or they're feeling overwhelmed and it's all too much.
They just dunno where to start. So Carla, I've launched into a lot, but welcome what comes to mind with my little introduction there. Yeah, that's great. That's absolutely what we've been discussing here and the idea that when we want to change, it's not about someone telling you to do things different.
[00:02:31] Carla: The change that we are talking about is that inner shift. Where you say to yourself, look, I don't want this anymore. I don't wanna keep doing this thing. And that redness is quite powerful and it's often the missing piece when we want to change and we want the change that sticks, you know, that we can actually change for good.
So that's what we're exploring today.
[00:02:57] Speaker 3: So when we're thinking about that readiness for change, are you able to give our listeners a bit more of a definition in terms of what we, we've looked at this concept in our coaching psychology studies,
[00:03:11] Carla: in coaching psychology, that readiness for change is not just about wanting things to be different, it's about having the psychological, the emotional, and the motivational resources in place to take action.
One of the theories in coaching psychology, it's a model of change, the model of change that was developed by Proach and Clement in the late seventies. This is quite useful framework in, in the field of coaching psychology to understand the process of intentional behavioral change. What is really powerful about the model is that it acknowledged that changes isn't just a single aha moment.
It's a non-linear and often quite a, a cycle. They actually come up with six stages that you move through the pre-contemplation stage. It's where you're not even considering the change yet. You might not see the problem at all. And then you move into the contemplation stage where there is a discomfort.
The discomfort is growing. Like you started weighing the pros and cons of doing things differently. And then the next one is the preparation stage. This is where you begin to plan and maybe experimenting and even taking the very small steps, and then you get into action. That's when you actually start taking real steps towards the change.
And then the fifth stage is maintenance next, where the focus really is like how do you sustain the change and integrate that change into your life for long term. And there is also a less known stage called the relapsed, which isn't failure, and it's a common part of the cycle that sometimes it happens when something changes or we change the context.
So this model is so useful in coaching, especially with professionals like lawyers because it helps normalize the messiness of change. Each stage has its own mindset and emotional resistance and energy. To create the change. Sometimes with lawyers, we notice that there is a pinpoint between the contemplation and the preparation where they intellectually know something, but to actually make the shift or even start planning, they don't feel yet ready enough to take action.
You know? And this gap between the insight and the implementation is where the readiness really leaves. So Kathleen. How do you see these stages playing out in lawyers? Are there a certain stage that you feel that they tend to get more stuck than others?
[00:05:50] Speaker 3: Look, Carla, it's really hard to generalize, but what I can say is what you just said about contemplation and preparation and the way that that people can get stuck.
In between. That really resonates because when you think about some of the cultural issues that many lawyers have to deal with, the pockets of the profession, where that being busy is absolutely a badge of honor. Even if they're not really wanting to work that long, they might have all these work habits, which are reinforced by the broader culture and practices of everyone around them.
They might have an awareness that they wanna change, you know, oh, I should work less, would be the classic one. Or I want more balance. I'm feeling stuck, but kind of getting so overwhelmed or just even in that cycle so much. We talked about the hamster wheel in one of our recent podcasts in terms of not even getting the space for self-reflection, and that's really the case here, right?
That you're in that cycle, you should be doing something different or that you want to, more importantly, but that you've not given yourself any of that space to be able to reflect. To think about how you might begin to choose something small to test the waters and to change. Another one though, is kind of jumping into the stage they're not at yet.
So just imagine that lawyer who wakes up one morning and is like, right, I've just had enough, but is really only kind of, I don't know, they've sort of been contemplating, but then suddenly they wanna jump into action. They make themselves a list of 10 action items and then they try and complete all of them and they exhaust themselves and crush and burn, and then we're right back to the beginning.
Does, does that ring true for you, Carla, in terms of what you see in some of the patterns?
[00:07:47] Carla: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, and I think the key here is like to meet yourself, you know, with curiosity, not shame. I.
[00:07:57] Speaker 3: So how do you figure that out? If you are that lawyer and you are busy like that and you are, you don't wanna work less or that you are, that you want, let's give another example that maybe you want more balance, but what's important to you is to spend more time with your kids.
Or there's a hobby that you really wanna take up, but somehow you're kinda, you're just still stuck on that wheel.
[00:08:25] Carla: The idea here that we use in coaching a lot and coaching psychology specifically is that it can, it's a skill, right? It can be built like a skill, but it can be developed with the right support and the right intention, and if you create the space for it.
Another useful framework that we really love to lean in in coaching, psychology, the self-determination theory. The, the theory suggests that people are more likely to embrace change if there's three key psychological needs if they are met, autonomy, competence, and relatedness. The autonomy is that sort of sense that you were choosing to change rather than you being forced to change.
So if the lawyer that is operating. In that sort of very environment driven by external expectations, just like the example that you gave. But at the same time, the lawyer wants to live the value of more balance. If they have that sort of sense of ownership, I want this rather than I should be doing that, so that motivation becomes much more sustainable.
In the long time. So
[00:09:45] Speaker 3: please, in that case, the more like they wanna make that change, they feel that if they feel that they're in control, they can begin take steps. But as they start to experiment, they probably increase in their feeling of competence
[00:09:57] Carla: because the competence is the belief that you can do it, or at least you can learn how to do it.
That works too. I can learn how to get to do that. I can build that.
[00:10:08] Speaker 3: With the relatedness, I could see that being a problem for some of our lawyers because if you are in a culture or an environment where other people are not doing that, you might not necessarily feel that you have the support to do so.
Yeah. So how can a lawyer who's feeling that. Start to get it. I'm experiencing that so powerfully at the moment with my experience at the gym. And I was reflecting on this just this evening again because after work I race to my gym class that I have in my local neighborhood where there's a small group of women and a couple of guys to go come every now and then.
Um, we do our strength circuits and our hybrid circuits, and I've gotten to know them. The trainers have gotten to know me. Everybody loves it, including me, because you feel supported and you feel like, oh, if I don't go, actually somebody's gonna notice. But then also, like when I increased the level of weights on my deadlift this evening, it was like, wow, Kathleen, well done.
Like there was an acknowledged, someone who noticed that I tried harder. But the point is here is that there are a number of different factors here. That increased the level of relatedness and my feeling of connection with other people. That made a big difference in me being able to sustain what, for me is a really big change and a habit that I probably seems pretty foreign to me.
Thinking back to who I was even a year ago.
[00:11:40] Carla: Yeah. Well, because the, there's that sense of connection that you're describing there. It's fuel for change. You realize that you are not the only one. Yes. That is noticing that you are lifting heavier weights. Like so there's the connection, the sense of connection.
[00:11:59] Speaker 3: It's fuel. So then what about we go back to our lawyer? Maybe they're in that culture and they're not feeling what I'm feeling at the gym with their work colleagues say, because maybe there's not that support. So I suppose then the challenge is how else? How could you begin to foster that or what opportunities are there for it?
[00:12:21] Carla: That's where coaching comes in, right? Or mentoring or having the relationship sometimes with another trusted peer. That can be created, sometimes be created, or sometimes it happens like it happened to you, right? You started going to a class. Yeah,
[00:12:37] Speaker 3: but I deliberately chose that. Like I'd gone to big gyms before and I haven't had that.
And I failed. And I think that was the missing piece. Yeah, because I needed that. And then I was learning because I was getting taught properly, which increased my competence. And as I felt more competence and mastery, I also felt more autonomy because. I realized that I could self-direct and could see my own improvement and agency in it.
I think here maybe it's a good place to actually give ourselves a bit of a plug in terms of the role of coaching that if you are that lawyer, maybe do think about What I've found when I've had coaching myself and in the role as coach with clients and Carlo, I'm interested in your perspective, is that people in that environment.
Often using you as a trusted person and a sounding board and telling you things that they don't really feel that they've got someone else in their life to be able to tell those things. Test, experiment in a really safe and confidential way. So you know, if you are struggling with that support, that might be a good sign that maybe coaching something to explore.
Yeah, it's really, absolutely. Is there anything you'd add
[00:13:56] Carla: to that picture? Coaching brings that relatedness, you know, when you started exploring and then when, and someone to believe in you that you have the autonomy as well. 'cause sometimes you think, oh, do I? How do I start going about And it's also challenging you at the same time.
Yeah.
[00:14:18] Speaker 3: So what about Carl? You do a huge amount of coaching with all sorts of professionals, including lawyers. And I'm curious as to, have you got any kind of examples, of course, in a anonymized, confidential way that you feel comfortable sharing where these themes have really come through in terms of.
Getting someone helping someone in terms of their readiness for change so that they can start to grow and move through that cycle from say, pre-contemplation to contemplation, through starting to think about preparation and action, and ultimately maintenance.
[00:15:01] Carla: This is a lawyer who comes to coach, burnt out.
She's delivering the results, she's managing a full caseload, mentoring junior lawyers. From an outside, she just looks like, yeah, she's doing really well, a role model there. But internally, she started feeling like really exhausted, frustrated, and then stuck really. So she's thinking I should slow down, but every time we explore back, she just goes, oh, so what does slow down look like?
And then she was never ready to actually act on anything. In a sort, was
[00:15:39] Speaker 3: she afraid, Carla, that it would actually decrease her performance? That slowing down would actually take away from what Yeah. What she was good at. Yeah. Yeah. It's a classic one. Lawyers, we know that this is you.
[00:15:52] Carla: Yeah. In that stage, she was in the contemplation stage.
Right. So she was aware that something needed to change, but she wasn't weighing the cost and benefits. Hmm. So instead of pushing her into action. Right then and there, we created more space for her to explore. And then in, in over the few sessions we uncover like the, the real blocker wasn't really the time management was this sort of fear of, yeah, I'm not gonna be good enough or like, I have to keep going at this speed.
To be as good as, and the disappointment how others are going to be started perceiving me. So she had internalized this belief that her value really came from pushing really hard and me constantly available and endless, dependable. And this belief was driving this person towards burnout. So to help her move from contemplation towards preparation and then actually start taking action.
We thought about the self-determination theory. So she needed to feel that she was choosing to slow down, and that was sort of okay, so honoring that value, so to explore a lot of that values and that she started to believe that she could communicate so she could build some of the boundaries around.
What might be, and the experimenting, like ever so small, like started with very small agreements, started with a few actions here and there, and that relatedness really came from, felt seen and understood without any judgment. The support that it was there from the coach and the talent, the challenge as well, and.
So she began then to feel a bit more agency and craft small, clear boundaries. And then a big boundary for her was that she would no longer respond to emails after seven PMs on week days. And this was, this may sound simple, but for her it was radical. Like it was a big change. And here's the key, like she, she, she started implementing the boundaries and she didn't feel guilt and she felt relief.
Reflected a lot on that. Mm-hmm. So that, that's how the redness looks like. It's not perfection, it's not, you know, fearless, but it's alignment. Right. It's really between your values and your choice and the support that helps you believe that it's possible.
[00:18:27] Speaker 3: Mm-hmm. So what I'm hearing there is, what is also perhaps following from what you've just said and really crucial is having the.
Skill or ability to really reflect on like, where are you honestly in that, like in, in that model, in that of all those stages of change with the thing that you wanna do, where are you at? And not try to jump forward but actually try and work through it. And so if you really are. Just beginning to have awareness that there's an issue that you wanna resolve.
And it could be something like having more balance or, or you know, is often a common one, even though I'm not a huge fan of using that word. But a lot of people, they want, they wanna have less work and more space to do other things. But another thing might be they're becoming aware that they wanna change an aspect of their leadership skills or their management practice.
And maybe they're just beginning with that awareness. It's about if you are conscious that you're only beginning to contemplate that being really deliberate about how you go about setting goals and creating those action steps that you're not taking too big a commitment on. Because if you jump too far, you might actually.
Bite off more than you could chew, and that will undermine that competence that you wanna grow. Right? And you'll feel like you've failed because actually you've said something that was too big. So I think that that's hugely important. Do you agree?
[00:20:12] Carla: Oh, absolutely.
[00:20:13] Speaker 3: Yeah. And then I think that other thing that I'm really taking away from this conversation is using self-determination theory.
These ideas of. Autonomy, competence, and relatedness. Now, you can work on those with a coach, but you can also really work on them on your own. You know, think about whatever it is that you're doing. How could you build on those three? Or is it that you've already got two, but there's one that is missing, or that if you just improved that, it would make a huge difference.
My gym example that I gave is a really powerful example of that, where the missing piece for me was clearly having the community and that sense of connection with other people. That was completely different to, you know, for example, when during the pandemic I didn't have that option, and so I was doing the workouts online and yes, that's still useful.
Yes, I still sometimes do that, but totally relying on that. Not helpful for me because I'm missing out on that community element and the learning and the connection and the fun that comes with that.
[00:21:21] Carla: Yeah, yeah,
[00:21:24] Speaker 3: yeah. That was made it stick. Right. And it'll be different for everybody. Yeah. And believe it.
You know, that's not the thing for me in other goals that I have. It was just in that one. That was what I needed to make the biggest difference to help me stick and really achieve it. And I still can't believe, like I, I, even with all my knowledge about coaching and all the work we've done, I am still surprised at the degree to which that one simple thing has made such a difference.
And once I became aware of that, how I could foster that to build it.
[00:21:55] Carla: Yeah, absolutely. Like, I mean, these theories are very useful, right? They've been studied and studied and then, you know, and put into practice. So it's worth a try. You're trying to create change and you don't know where you might be.
[00:22:11] Speaker 3: You know, there's other points that we could focus on too.
Like, I think when we think about the nature of the legal profession and the kind of work we do, what this awareness can do is, you know, lawyers might think that they're clever because they're good at the law, right? They've developed this career and. Sometimes I think there can be a fundamental misconception that keeps 'em stuck, and that is basically they think it is enough that they understand the problem, right?
So there might be a circumstance where they know they wanna change something, they think that they understand the dynamics of it, and that's s enough insight is not enough. The insight has to lead to action, and that's where this model comes through, right? Because if you know that there is something, and it could be, could be anything, it could be how you are managing your team.
It might be how you are looking after yourself to have the energy that you need to bring to your life. It could be the hours that you're working. But understanding that kind of change readiness can help you really bridge that, that gap that will exist between your understanding of the problem and the doing your actual behavior.
Especially when you are not sure about like the effort, is it gonna be worth it? Or you might be feeling quite ambivalent, is this too much trouble that it's worth? So maybe just before we wind up the discussion. It's interesting here, like once you think about that action and then you're going to, even that last stage of maintenance, not noting that there can be those relapses, how can it help lawyers kind of actually sustain and really maintain that change?
[00:24:13] Carla: Lawyers are quite often high achievers, studied highly. You've got a job you're driven that is discipline and very used to. Solve complex problems under pressure of the job. Absolutely. And so that same sort of high performance mindset often comes with a powerful inner critic, many a lawyer I've seen with that.
So when change doesn't happen quickly, perfectly, they can also be interpreted as a personal failure rather than a part of a normal growth process. So the redness in this model is so valuable, just to remind us that this is not a one-time decision. We are talking about the series of stages. Each stage has its own sort of psychological tasks and relapses and regressions, setbacks.
They're part of the process as well.
[00:25:09] Speaker 3: This relates to our reflective practice discussions because really they go together. You start having awareness of these stages. You are looking at what you're doing. Through that lens, you can start to use that structure of self-reflection to play and to experiment and to move through them as you move through them.
The intentions that you set, the actions that you choose, the experimentation, the reflection about what you've noticed will naturally change and grow, and that's a good opportunity to apply this kind of thing. Oh, what am I missing? Is it that I don't feel that I have control over what I'm doing? Is it that I'm feeling I'm not connected to others?
Is it that I'm not feeling that I know enough and maybe there's something additional that I need to learn to develop that competence? So look, I think that this follows beautifully from that discussion, and if you haven't listened to those podcasts, it might be a good idea to go back and really reflect on those.
Carla, any kind of final comments or tips for
[00:26:18] Carla: lawyers? Well, think about the stages, definitely. And then like also remember the self-determination theory, right? Like the true redness happens when the desire to change is driven by internal motivation, not just external expectations. That's where you can really bring the autonomy, the competence, and the relatedness, and actually intentionally use that to help you create the change.
[00:26:50] Speaker 3: Yeah,
[00:26:51] Carla: right. Because those can be really meaningful
[00:26:53] Speaker 3: changes. That's really good advice. And just I should add that self-determination theory comes from the work of. Dechy and Ryan, I believe we'll put some links so that you can access some or books or papers if you'd like. So we'll figure that out and put some appropriate resources in the notes.
But we'd also love to hear from you, like what's one small thing that you could do this week to create space for reflection or build your readiness for change in whatever it is that you wanna change. Drop us a message or join the conversation on LinkedIn. If you found this episode helpful, please subscribe, share it with your lawyer friends, and leave us a review.
We really appreciate you taking the time to listen in. Thank you and thank you, Carla. Thank you.
[00:27:42] Kathleen: Thank you so much for listening to this episode of the thriving lawyer with Kathleen Brenner and Carla Ferraz, if you like it, please share it with your lawyer friends and colleagues, and tag us on Instagram at @thriving lawyer or on LinkedIn via the links in the show notes. And if you liked what you heard, please drop a review in apple podcasts.
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If you'd like to work with us, check out our free resources and our signature course, the thriving lawyer. Which you will find at www.thrivinglawyer.com.au. You can also download our free guide, the lawyer's guide to thriving: a sustainable roadmap for success.
It's filled with great tips and ideas so that you can begin to make real change. You'll find the link to that in our show notes.
We hope this podcast has given you massive value. And that you can use it to begin to create your own thriving life. A life where you can thrive as a lawyer. And in the rest of your life.
