[00:00:00] Kathleen: You are listening to The Thriving Lawyer with Kathleen Brenner and Carla Ferraz. I'm Kathleen, a highly experienced lawyer and an International Coaching Federation accredited coach.
[00:00:13] Carla: And I am Carla. Like Kathleen, I am an ICF certified coach and I have worked with top leaders and professionals, many of them lawyers, at some of the world's biggest organizations.
My focus is on using evidence based approaches to help my clients thrive at work and in the rest of their lives. Together,
[00:00:35] Kathleen: we bring you the Thriving Lawyer podcast, a podcast filled with ideas and inspiration, as well as practical tips to help you thrive as a lawyer and in the rest of your
life. Let's get into it.
Welcome to episode 14 of the Thriving Lawyer Podcast. I'm here again this evening with my dear friend, Carla Ferraz. She's my partner in all things the thriving lawyer. So welcome Carla.
[00:01:05] Carla: Hello. Thank you, Kathleen. I'm very much looking forward to talk about vision and goal setting today.
[00:01:13] Kathleen: Yes. Well, in our last episode that we recently published, we explored that theme of readiness for change, really thinking about understanding where.
We are at in a particular change process, so that you can be really deliberate about what action you eventually take. And of course we learned when we were doing that podcast that that is actually only one of the stages of change, but a lot of the time people get caught up in that and that's where the focus tends to be.
So moving on from that focus on change readiness. What we wanna do in our discussion today is build on that, go further. Because once we understand where we are in that change process, we are much better able to choose better goals and better action steps to support them and to then be able to maintain what we do, engage in it with what we could describe as the spirit of experimentation.
Okay? But today we're gonna look at. Our vision, our best soul self, and the real reasons that we actually so often end up struggling with goal setting. We set a goal, we have all these ideas about what we're gonna achieve, and you know, it's the New Year's resolutions. It's the classic example. We set the resolution in 31st of December and by the end of January, if we've done well, we've probably forgotten about it.
And you know, going along with yet another. Yeah, so the theme, this is not about just having so-called smart goals or being able to have productivity hacks. What we're interested in is something a lot deeper, is something more about thriving. Thriving is a lawyer, and thriving is a human. So setting goals that are so fundamentally and deeply connected with who you are and what you are doing and why it all matters.
So Carl, I'm just gonna pass to you for some reactions and to perhaps build on what I've just said.
[00:03:31] Carla: Yeah. Um, let, let's begin with a question that seems like really simple on the surface, but it's really surprisingly hard to un answer honestly. What do you really want? And I mean, you. Not what the firm wants, not what your peers are chasing, not what you thought you were supposed to want when you started law school, for example.
What do you want now in this moment of your life? I often meet clients that are chasing goals that were really meaningful to them at one point of their life, like. Making partner or buying a house or reaching the promotion, that level in the company. But a lot of times they haven't paused to ask themself, does this still matter to me?
Does it reflect who I have become now? You know, like, and that's where, like in the, in the Thriving lawyer, we like to start with what we call fuzzy goals. The broad value driven aspirations that live on the top of our goals hierarchy. You know, and these aren't like the concrete tasks, they're more of like a, a directional truth.
You know? For example, if you think about your value or freedom, your fuzzy goal might be something like, I wanna build a business that allows me to set my own schedule and gives me the flexibility to work from anywhere. Or for example, for someone that maybe values family and connection. So the fuzzy goal might be around being present and engaged with family.
So these goals begin to give shape and direction to what a meaningful like life looks like. It's not very specific, it's just sort of like, this is the direction where I'm going. I'm heading this direction here. And it's very much, very often driven by your values, driven by things that are important to you.
Can I just
[00:05:54] Kathleen: jump in there carla? What I'm hearing there is that they're one step more specific than just a value. So like for me, you know the key values that I'm very clear about, like one of them is learning, another is service to others, and another is connection. Help. Now for the first three, that example you gave of building a business to have more freedom really resonated, right?
Because I've got this big fuzzy goal about what I'm going to achieve through my coaching work and the training work that I'm doing in addition to being a lawyer. And it's out there and it's a broad direction. I can't quite grasp the precise reality, and it's not like an action list that I could just put on a list and tick off, right?
Because it's just that far out. But there's real meaning to it. There's a directional goal, but, and it, and it's deeply connected to my values. Like if I didn't know those values, I wouldn't have been able to. Really set the right, fuzzy, distant goal, but it's there. Have I got what you're saying? Correct,
[00:07:08] Carla: yeah, absolutely.
Yeah. It's that direction. Right. And that informs you to create more actionable goals by the things that you're doing, you know, that the choices that you're making to be here to record this podcast, for example.
[00:07:26] Kathleen: Exactly. Exactly. Yeah.
[00:07:29] Carla: At the Thriving Lawyer course, we really emphasize that visioning as a core part of creating a sustainable success like your best self, the version of you that feels grounded, energized, and aligned.
You know, so when you set goals from that place, everything changes.
[00:07:52] Kathleen: Yes. Yeah.
[00:07:54] Carla: So I love to ask you a question, Kathleen. How did your own goals evolve once you begun reconnecting with those deeper values?
[00:08:04] Kathleen: I think it builds on what I just said, right?
Mm-hmm.
In that it was really important to do the values work.
You know, you can't skip that part. So, you know, we've done a podcast earlier and if you haven't listened to that, really encourage you go back and listen to what we've said about that values work. And that is a really key component of what we do early on in the Thriving Lawyer course, our signature course, because it is so fundamental to have that reflection time to go that deeper for me in my own personal experience.
It wasn't like there was a single aha moment. This is not something that I could snap my fingers and everything changed. Rather, it was a gradual kind of integrative kind of process. Like a it, it took time. I remember a real turning point was probably good 10 years ago, long before I ever imagined coaching myself, which was when we had.
An expert coach came who came into our work and he was actually doing the master's degree that we are doing at the time, and he did the VIA strengths assessment with us, and we'll talk about that soon in an, in another podcast. But it essentially, it's a positive psychology, evidence-based framework where people can take a test online, there's a free version, and you can assess key character strengths that you have.
These are different from like your, your strengths in terms of what you're good at. These are much more related to character. And what came up for me was that two of the strongest values which have come up ever since, and once I had awareness of this, I really changed the way I did things, was a love of learning, which should have been obvious to me for years.
But the second one was an appreciation of beauty and excellence. Those kind of awareness of that, those as values were really important to me meant that I started noticing the opportunities and then seeking it out. And it became kind of like this process, this self-fulfilling prophecy, because the more I did that, the more important it became.
Then I worked with a coach and did some values work. Um, I wasn't, at that point, I was really looking to move from Canberra back to Melbourne in a different legal job. I was really stuck in my career in terms of knowing what was gonna be the next step. That values work was so valuable because what it meant was that I was immediately able to go, what is the job that I want?
What am I looking for? And that meant I didn't waste my time on anything else. I was so select. But you know, within six months, because I was so deliberate about what I did, I was back in Melbourne with a new job, at a new life. Very quickly, but it wouldn't have happened I don't think, with having done values work.
So, you know, then it continues. Like I, I could go on like when the pandemic happened, it was even deeper again because, and occasion like that, particularly when, you know, I was in Melbourne, it was particularly tough down there during a lot of that period. That for me was a real chance to step back, reflect.
I was already doing coach training. I did more and more, I was being coached, and that process of being coached had a real profound impact because I had an opportunity to explore some of those deeper desires and to set new goals. I think I'd gotten to a point in life where, you know, I'd spent so long building up my legal career and thinking about that, that I didn't really have new dreams beyond that.
I'd kind of got stuck and through this coaching work, like I, it couldn't be more different. In fact, my problem now is that there's too many things and so I actually want it all, all at once is I think Simone De Bewa made a quote about that, that she wanted everything. Um. I, I can relate to that. Not in a material sense, but more in terms of possibilities that can occur and being able to make, take advantage of those.
[00:12:24] Carla: Yeah. Thank you. Very beautiful. And look, and, and the science says exactly that, right? When we think about goal theory, it tells us that the goals are more likely to be effective when they are clear. Challenging and meaningful, connected to something that we really care about. And your example was so much of that, like you, you became clear of what you wanted.
It was a challenge. It wasn't easy, right? It was out of your comfort zone and it was so really meaningful. 'cause it was driven by your values and your strengths and things that you really liked. You know, and even more importantly, if we go another, um, step deeper is like when we think about self-determination theory, I.
It tells us like the, the lasting motivation comes when you, your goal sets, finds your three core needs. The autonomy I choose to do this, which again, was in this example that you've just shared with us. I, I can, the competence, I can do that. I'm empowering myself and there is relatedness. Like this is, it matters.
It's something bigger than just me.
[00:13:38] Kathleen: Yeah, and I have to say that that relatedness is really important. You know, I work from home in my legal work and my coaching work, and so for example, I don't think that I would feel as satisfied or have the motivation with everything that we do in the Thriving Lawyer if I was trying to do it all on my, it's the engagement that you and I have and the relationship that we've developed that we are able to.
Bounce ideas, discuss, talk, create new possibilities. That for me, gives me that sense of relatedness in this work. Yeah, and I think of my legal work as well. I am on Teams an awful lot with the lawyers that are in my team. I love working with them. I'd much rather be doing that than just working on my own all the time.
Again, for me it's that need for relatedness is so important. And I think sometimes that that can be a crucial issue for lawyers because sometimes, you know, it does depend on what kind of legal work you're doing, but I think that sometimes it can be a very solitary, lonely profession, and I'm thinking particularly of the work of barristers in chambers, they don't work in a firm structure.
They're self-employed essentially. That yes, they have chambers, but I, you know. There's lots of discussion in the legal profession about how lonely that can be, but even for the lawyers in law firms so often we're stuck with a big matter and legal advice. I think it could, can get lonely.
[00:15:14] Carla: Well, I love how you're saying that even though you work from home, you know that you would think that that is that aspect that is quite lonely, but you, you intentionally are creating.
[00:15:23] Kathleen: Yeah, I don't buy the story that working from home. It is inevitably. Meaning that it's lonely. It can be. Absolutely. It could be, but only if you are not fostering that relatedness somehow.
[00:15:38] Carla: But you do have to be very deliberate about
Yeah, absolutely.
[00:15:43] Kathleen: Yeah.
[00:15:43] Carla: And, and I love like our, you know, we do this, but we actually have a lot of fun.
Like we, we enjoy our conversations. We, you know, we explore together. So it, it's. Look, I wouldn't be doing this if it wasn't fun. Like there is that a relatedness is, it's really strong as well with us.
[00:16:02] Kathleen: It's balanced though, right, though, by the autonomy, right? Yeah, because it's really important even in the, like the coaching work that we do, and also like I think of me as a lawyer in my legal work, me having the ability to have some kind of management or control over what I'm doing.
And to then have the competence to know that I've got the mastery and the skill or the skill level that I need, or that if I don't know something, I know how to find it out or who to talk to to be able to balance that. And it's not like those three won'ts sometimes come into tension. Right? And you know that, that, that need for autonomy versus being.
Having that sense of relatedness, it's something we need to be very deliberate about and think about what works for us.
[00:16:54] Carla: Yeah, it's, it's a beautiful framework, right? It's, it's a framework to ask us questions, you know, you know, like, just like you said here, relatedness is important. How do I make sure, once I know that, you know, how do I make sure that it's present in my life?
So
[00:17:11] Kathleen: Kala, with all that in mind, then, what does it actually mean for the goals that we're setting?
[00:17:18] Carla: Well, like when we think about goals, so I, I would say make sure that it's coming from you, not from pressure or fear. It also helps that it connect to something bigger than just to you, that relatedness aspect.
Otherwise, you know, it's likely that it will drain you. Watch, you know, like, and if you are, if you're not sure, ask yourself questions. Um, how, how do you know Kathleen, like in a profession where there are a lot of visitation, she set from external milestones, right? To become a partner, to hit the billables, to climb through the ranks.
Um, how does this impact lawyers, you know, how can they start choosing goals? Or at least learn how to internalize the goals for themselves that are important for them.
[00:18:24] Kathleen: That's a really, really big question, but where I think I can start to answer that is that just first of all, to qualify and say, you know, all of those goals that you mentioned are not intrinsically bad goals. They might be exactly the right thing that you need in the right moment. What we are really concerned about here, about thinking about are you just taking somebody else's goal, somebody else's version of success, and then creating this life around what you think you should want or what other people think that you should want.
And I have to say, when I think back to the world that I walked into in law school. You know, I've been lucky in that my profession has been in a public law environment, and so the, the, the goals or those external milestones were a little bit different in that environment. But when I think of the lawyers that I know more broadly, they're definitely some who've chased an idea of success that wasn't their own.
Have perhaps come to realize that once they've hit their early forties, they've gotten to a certain level and now they're questioning everything. I think that happens a lot, probably in all professions, but definitely see it in the legal profession. So I think the difference has to be. S even giving yourself that reflection space to take that time.
It's the question that you asked at the very beginning that was like, what do you actually want? What is important to you? Now, sometimes people will come and say, but I, I just don't know Kathleen. I don't know. And this could also be not only people who are, you know, well established in their careers, but it might be young people who've just finished law school.
They can't be expected to know at that point exactly what they want. But the point is that you, that's the stage to approach the questions with curiosity. Don't expect to have the answers, but perhaps if you really don't know, try and just be a little curious about what it might be. And maybe play, take just one thing.
What, what could be one thing that you could potentially do differently? Take the time to think about what is most important to you. To the extent that you can start to think about key values that values work is a starting point. You know, we've got exercises that we deal with, creating space for you to ask those questions and reflect.
To take a different perspective, a longer term perspective, and maybe it's something to do with what you wanna be remembered for. Your idea of like, what a really, you know, if you, if you're on your deathbed, what, what would the life well lived look like? Those kind of questions can be intimidating, but thought provoking, and they can begin to just create possibilities.
And then also, if you've got external goals. There are times when you are absolutely going to have to achieve them in order to meet the performance requirements in your role. You might have particular things in your performance agreement, particular targets that you need to meet, or, um, a particular standard.
Um, you know, that kind of thing's really common in performance agreements. Well, if there's an externally driven goal and you're not too keen on it, is there a possibility? You can connect it to your most important values that you can make it a challenge. Like for me, I can remember a particular goal that I wasn't that enthused about because it was something that was imposed, but I connected it to the love of learning.
How could I make this a challenge? What could I learn from it? I still didn't lock, I have to be honest, but it did enable me to take a little bit of a different perspective. So. They're just some of the things that come to mind. Carla, is there anything that you would add to that picture from your perspective?
[00:22:55] Carla: Yeah, I, I think that just emphasizing the curiosity, right? Like, so where are you when you, when you start wondering about those things, you know, like, am I doing what I'm s. Want to be doing, you know, how might I do things differently and just sort of like sit with the reflection, right? Like, and really this ties up with our previous episode with the stages of change.
So if you are in a pre-contemplation stage, you might not even have realize that the change is needed. Yes, which is fine. So if you're in the contemplation, it's where you're starting to consider those ideas where you can start asking those questions, right? And then when you started, gain a bit more clarity.
It's where you start, you know, visioning, what could it be, you know, what is the first step towards that? And, and sometimes it might be really small. Sort of slowly you get into the, the action. Um, Kathleen, how, how do you see this aspect of readiness to change influence the way that lawyers might set meaningful goals?
[00:24:23] Kathleen: Well, I think what you said hit it. Absolutely. You know, that idea of, that awareness of like, if you're in the contemplation stage. Don't set two bigger goals that are set in concrete or two bigger action steps that are set in concrete experiment, approach it with curiosity, explore, take little steps to sort of test the waters.
You know, lawyers, I think can be really perfectionist. We are trained and rewarded for perfectionism, so it's often natural for us to want that perfect solution right at the beginning, but. What I have learned through this work, and this is definitely a lesson I have had to learn, that has not come naturally and I think really only my awareness of it has deepened since I learned about this stages of change model that we learn in our university and that we now really wanting to share because we see it's value.
You know that, that, that awareness of where you are in the change process is so critical because if you put yourself under so much pressure at the very beginning. You actually might shut down the very real change that you wanna achieve. And that kind of, that, that taking time to vision, to create, to be curious, to try and get that clarity about what it is that, um, you're actually chasing is really important before you take committed action.
[00:25:47] Carla: Yeah. So moving on with, with the GoPro. So once you have the vision. A bit more clarity there, it may be still fuzzy. The next step usually is, is translating into a meaningful goal. You know, at the Thriving Lawyer, we, we focus a lot on goals aligned with your values. Like we've, we've been sharing here and there's different frameworks that we use to, to help you come up with it.
Like the smart goals one, for example, but like applied with a lot of flexibility. Because once the goal is sort of defined, we understand that it's, it's evolving, like it progresses and, and with the reflection you stop and pause and you incorporate or reprioritize or it's never quite the same thing that we started with.
Like if we have, if we are always reflecting, it's always evolving, it's always going into something else. So we, we never have the full clarity as we are going along. Um, yeah, it, it look, and when we started looking at goals from that perspective, like it's something that it's adapting, revisit, re, you know, refining it, it becomes really a, a lot of fun.
Right. And it makes a huge difference because it gives you the sort of self-efficacy as well that you are moving in a direction.
[00:27:18] Kathleen: Yeah. And I mean, look. I think that that has a lot of resonance for lawyers too, who are really prone to just set that big ambitious goal. As I said before, you know, without actually really taking the time, is just something that is sustainable that you're actually gonna be able to maintain in the long term.
So having that flexibility, treating it with a spirit of fun and play, I think is super important. Because that gives you the space to be able to evolve and learn and you can change the goal. You don't have to stick to it if it's the wrong one. You know, maybe you, you weren't quite clear and you said it.
It's not just about the destination. You know, it's not a contract. Lawyers love contracts, but this is not one, you know, how could you characterize it? A living commitment that should grow with you is one way to characterize it. Yeah.
[00:28:15] Carla: Yeah. And, and that's such an important shift, right? Like treating goals as an evolving guide instead of just fixed outcomes.
And, and that's exactly where, um, the experimentation comes in. And, and this is like my favorite part of the process. Like, because it really brings like that lightness, the curiosity, you know, sort of like, and the permission to, to, to. Pur pursue into that goal and also understand that, look, I'm setting the rules here and understand that like I can also adapt.
Um, then like, so the thriving lawyer really encourage to replace the pressure with that spirit of experimentation. So instead of saying, I have to wake up at 5:00 AM and work out. For one hour, five days a week, forever and ever for the rest of my life. It's like you might say, well, this is a really busy week.
I might walk for 30 minutes if I can't get to the gym. And that's too movement, and that's okay. You know, giving the permission to adapt to the goal according to what is happening at that point in time. You know, so like the experiment is not a test of willpower. It's much more of like a, a learning tool.
We are learning along the way. We are learning with the goal, like we are gathering data and you're seeing what works for you, what energizes you, you know, what also aligns realistically with your current capacity. Because sometimes we set the goals and things change, and then we never go like, is that realistic?
Can I actually do this today with, you know, that helps with boundaries, but, but, but we have to sit with it and pause. And how important is that for lawyers?
[00:30:10] Kathleen: Oh, well, I mean, it's important for all humans, so it's important for lawyers. Lawyers are still humans and I think it's easy for us to forget that. Um, but, you know, I.
Absolutely. I mean, if we put that pressure on ourselves, which is very easy to do because of our perfectionist nature, we can end up feeling like we've failed. But if you take a different perspective that it's an experiment, failure is then not a measure of your self-worth or your identity. It is, as you say, data, it's evidence.
So if something didn't work well, how can you change it? And I've been working on that with my gym work that I've been talking about a bit in some of the episodes. What's working, what's not, change it up if I was struggling in the mornings. Well, I've ma managed to make it one morning a week to go to the gym before work, but that's it.
That's sustainable for me in the oven days. I do it in the evening, but it took some playing around with that Now. It's equally, it's applicable, like that was a personal example, but in the legal profession as a lawyer working, you can see that you could have little experiments if you are wanting to manage better with your team or you wanna have a better client relationship, or you wanna build expertise in a different area of law.
You know, you could just think of it's the number of different possibilities are infinite. But again. Taking that attitude of an experiment reduces that risk of failure, and it helps to use the language of self-determination theory. You build that co competence. It's not so high stakes, right? There's more, there's more room to just, well to breathe to, to look around and explore what might be possible.
[00:32:09] Carla: Well, and then I think it supports autonomy as well. Yeah. 'cause when you experiment, you're sort of giving yourself permission to be curious, to be responsive instead of like really rigid or a lot of the times reactive. Thank you. You're choosing how you want to react to certain situations and, and that's where like once we bring the reflection cycle again, like once you, you start experimenting and you, you know, the real learn begins when you pause and reflect.
Like when you start like tracking how you feel, you know, how did I feel today? What did I learn here? You know, what worked, what do I wanna try next time? And then you see like what patterns are emerging. And a reflection doesn't have to be complicated. Like it can be a few journal notes or sometimes you don't.
Some ideas you can go thinking like, I, I very often go for a walk and I reflect as I'm walking. Some people like to have, you know, voice recording, um, of what they're thinking. Or even a, a, a conversation with a colleague, you might reflect together. Um, what is really important is to create a regular rhythm of checking in with yourself.
[00:33:37] Kathleen: Hmm. And what you've said just goes right to the very heart of that recent podcast we had where we interviewed David Love and Christian Van Berger, um, because they offered such a rich insight into self-reflection, how you can engage in those reflective practices and how they can not only shape your development as an individual, but your leadership and even team culture too.
[00:34:04] Carla: Yeah, it was such a powerful conversation. Right? And, and it, and it beautifully ties into everything that we have explored here today. Like the vision that redness and the meaningful goals, and then experiment. And then now you're learning, right? Like from the inside out. Like you start, like you've got answers there.
You've gotta ask the questions.
[00:34:27] Kathleen: Yes. And so maybe Carla. That's a good opportunity for us to wind up this conversation with an invitation. So here's the challenge that we are putting out to you this week. Take time, revisit what's most important to you. Think about those values. What's the vision that you have?
If you're not sure, how might you find out? Check where you are in that stages of change. Are you just beginning or are you someone that's had that vision pretty clear for a while and now you are looking at how to take some big action steps? Or perhaps you're well on the way and you're just trying to maintain it, but know where you are in that stage so that you can pick the appropriate strategies and then try one small experiment.
That aligns with your idea of who you are as your best self and then reflect. Take that time. Could only be a few minutes. It might be as you go walking as Carla said, and just reflect on what you've learned and we would love to hear how you go. Well, thank you so much for joining us today. We've loved having you with us to give you a little bit of a teaser.
Next time building on the analysis that we've just done. You know, we've been talking about self-reflection stages of change today, goals, next time we're going to really work on how you can, if you're having trouble setting that fuzzy vision or you're trying to understand what's most important to you.
We're going to talk about strength and in particular character strengths, because that awareness, you know, I mentioned my. Experience of them can really help with that understanding of yourself and deeper awareness of how you can tap into that.
[00:36:30] Carla: Thank you, Kathleen.
[00:36:33] Kathleen: Thank you.
Thank you so much for listening to this episode of the thriving lawyer with Kathleen Brenner and Carla Ferraz, if you like it, please share it with your lawyer friends and colleagues, and tag us on Instagram at @thriving lawyer or on LinkedIn via the links in the show notes. And if you liked what you heard, please drop a review in apple podcasts.
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