[00:00:00] Kathleen: Welcome to episode 15 of the Thriving Lawyer Podcast. I am back here this evening with my co-partner in all things the thriving lawyer, Carla Ferraz, and this time we are going to shift emphasis. So last episode we were talking about really all about goals and actually making the right kind of goals and being able to have this spirit of experimentation so that you could begin to take steps to move towards them.
This time we're going to look at something that is often overlooked, but it's a really important part of this picture. You know, we've got our most important values and what's important to us that should guide us as a compass. But our strengths are really important too. And when we are referring to strengths in the context of the conversation that we are going to have today, we are not just talking about them as the things that you are good at. You might be a strong writer, for example, as a lawyer, , or you might be really good at negotiation or if you're a barrister, the courtroom work, your. No. What we are talking about here is something broader.
We're talking about traits that you possess in terms of character, but those character traits are tools that you can leverage. Now, I had never heard about these character strengths before. I, well, had a coach come to the my own workplace a good decade ago and introduced me to them.
And I have to say, when I first did the survey, I was a little skeptical about what difference or insights I could gain from it. But I have to say it made a big difference. We'll come to the why later, but you know, whether you are a lawyer who is working, as a barrister. So you front court all the time, whether you're a solicitor who's mentoring the junior lawyers in your team, perhaps you're a contract lawyer working with, high stakes negotiations.
Being able to really leverage your strengths is what matters. So we are going to draw on this from this positive psychology lens. This comes from the work of a scholar we've talked about a bit in the context of some of these podcasts. Martin Seligman, who is often. Lauded as the father of positive psychology, and we'll look at that framework and how we can bring them to life in the legal profession.
So welcome. Carla. Would you like to add something to that little introduction that I just gave?
[00:02:57] Carla: Hello everyone. So. You know, I love your introduction around, you know, strength as being like not just perform, it's not performance strengths. It's like, it's more of like a personality trait, but they can also be seen as even more than that, right?
Because if we use them intentionally, they can be a really powerful tool, to shift us from languishing into thriving. Um, and today we're going to explore that, how to spot, how to grow and how to use the strengths, especially moments of challenges or moments of transitions. Like, you know, whether it's a new job or a new home or changing in life circumstances.
What I have really come to appreciate with our exploration, like with coaching psychology and positive psychology, is that the strengths can be really dynamic. Like they are alive within us and they can be cultivated. Hmm. You know, and when we are connected to our strengths and we are really aware of them we apply them with a lot of intention, they can become a really, you know, powerful source of energy and of resilience in even to bring even more meaning to our lives. So that's why we're so passionate about at this topic, at the Thriving Lawyer. This is one of the concepts that is not nice to know.
You know, it can make really, really make a, a big difference in our lives, especially when we learn how to grow and use these strengths, you know, in a meaningful way. It can really make a difference between burnout and living, like sustainable success.
So today we're going to explore how we spot the strengths, how we use them, and, how we can actually use them as a tool for thriving. So maybe we started with, you know, a brief introduction, what our strengths I think the, as you mentioned, the first person to recognize was Martin Seligman, the father of PO positive psychology, and he helped shift the focus of psychology from pathology, what is wrong with us, to flourishing, you know, what is right with us.
Um, and a key part of this shift involving, defining and studying and understand, you know, strengths as character. Hmm. You know, character strengths as the positive parts of our personality that influence how we think, how we feel, and how we behave.
And there are, you know, different assessments to, to assess your strengths there, like the ones that we use at, at the Thriving Law is the VIA the Values in Action classification of character Strengths.
There are other ones like Clifton Strengths or Strength Profile, or Hogan Leadership Strengths. Um, Via was developed by Christopher Peterson and Martin Seligman and they. Had this effort to define 24 universal character strengths that is consistent across cultures, religions, and world views.
Um, and they are organized under six broad virtues, wisdom, courage, humanity, justice, temperance, and transcendence. And the research shows that when we use our top strengths regularly, we experience more engagement. We become more productive and we may find more meaning in what we are doing. So the invitation here, you know, is not just to know your strengths, but to consistently use them.
'cause that's where the transformation begins. Um. And, and for lawyers, you know, that are trained to be focused on fixing problems, spotting flows, reducing risk, it's really important because sometimes these dreams can be, you know, overlooked.
So, Kathleen, I just like to, to ask you a question. What have you seen when lawyers start recognizing and using their strengths more intentionally?
[00:07:18] Kathleen: Hmm. Well perhaps a good place to start is my own example. Um, my own experience, which was, there have been times in the past where perhaps it's easy to get caught in the day-to-day busyness, and if you've got a particular role, you know, in terms of advice work, you can get into habits and to routines
Carla and I still really vividly recall the first time that I did this work and what came up was the strongest value, which has always come out as number one every time I have ever done this assessment since, as love of learning. Now, that should have been obvious, but what happened when I became aware of that was suddenly it kind of dawned on me how, well, let me put it this way,
it explained why I found the moments at work the most fulfilling when I did, which was when I suddenly felt that I was learning something new and that something new was being opened up. And I had that feeling of satisfaction when I completed an interesting advice where I felt I'd learned a whole lot. Or another example was also um, understanding where perhaps I was overusing that strength that I started to realize that often I would look at a matter and be kind of wanting to jump in and find out what I could learn, and sometimes I needed to step back from that and really remind myself what was needed in the moment from the client's perspective.
So there was a little bit of a perceptive shift, right? It wasn't all good. There was a overuse of that strength as well. But I can think of all sorts of examples. You know, you talked about some of the strengths. Well, all of the strengths are grouped right in themes, and a lot of them are about wisdom., Some are more about humanity or courage or the, like, the transcendence kind of categories.
What really strikes me is that there might be a lawyer, for example, who. Went into law and is so focused on a, like fairness. This sense of fairness is really fundamental to who they are as a human being. And if they have that awareness, they can use that to identify opportunities about what kind of role they actually want as a lawyer.
So it can actually have that really significant impact at a high level about the very type of lawyer you choose to be and where you focus your effort. So I think like this has value for any lawyer, no matter what stage you're at. I come back to this, you know, I try and do it at least every 18 months where I'll renew it and see what, um, stayed the, the same and what has changed.
Um, you know, often there's those few that are always at the top, but some of the others might change order, and often that's reflective of where I am at life and what what life is calling on me. Um, to do, like, to give you one example of that, like during the pandemic, the perseverance type strengths kind of really came to the fore and I think that was because what life was demanding of me at the moment, in that moment.
So these are also not set in stone. It's not like we are being determinative here of, you know, you get a particular strength and you know that that's definitive forever more. You know, there are shifts over time as, as you change. Um, but there's definite value of just thinking about what might it tell me?
What can I learn from it? And having those reflections. Does that resonate, Carla?
[00:11:20] Carla: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, it makes sense. Like just having that awareness, like it helps us, you know, when you are in a situation, which strength can I rely on here?
[00:11:32] Kathleen: Yes. And I suppose the other part of that is that if you just think about some of the issues that we've talked about with lawyers so often, that tendency to perfectionism, um, being so overly analytical, you know, they might describe, you know, or think, look for the negatives.
Oh, it's gonna be hard. Or o this is challenging. Um, o um. Uh, something's missing. Okay. Rather than focusing on what is actually present. Okay. And what are the strengths that you can leverage? Okay. So I think that that's the benefit. It makes us think in the positive of positive psychology, of thinking what are the inherent character strengths that you have that you might be able to harness in a particular moment that might have an impact on the outcome of that moment and more broadly, your wellbeing. So not only might it get you a better outcome in your work as a lawyer, but it has this whole of life wellbeing benefit as well.
[00:12:40] Carla: Kathleen is, I I, and I know how powerful it was for you to discover your strengths. Like we've, we've had many conversations about that and what a shift that created in your life. So, but I'm curious, is there one strength in particularly that you didn't fully value or lean into, but now may, maybe in your legal work? But now that you have to come to appreciate a lot more?
[00:13:08] Kathleen: Mm. Well, in one sense, I think that like that love of learning one is the one that always comes to mind because it had that most profound impact because even though it was something that I've always loved and you know, you only have to look back at my history to kind of know that, the awareness of that did make such a difference.
But perhaps another one that always comes up, number two or three, which mostly, you know, for a long time I thought about it primarily in my personal life, but I do think that I've become increasingly aware of its importance at work, which is that appreciation of beauty and excellence. So a lot of that comes, the way that shows up for me outside of work is to feel a sense of wellbeing I need to feel connected to beautiful things. Nature is one of them, but it's also beautiful architecture, beautiful things, just, you know, beauty in general, art, et cetera. Um, theater is a big one, for me and music. So the biggest way for me to not feel well, or a sense of wellbeing is to feel disconnected from all of those things.
And so, for example, I remember in the pandemic really having to foster those things in an alternative way when I was stuck at home. Right? So that's the personal example, but I wanna get back to work. I think where it has made the biggest difference for me at work has been that appreciation of seeing work really done well.
That pride when, and advice that you've got through that you've crafted, you've gone through a mess where people didn't know what was the right outcome. There were all these competing factors. The policy was tricky. The legal imperatives were tricky. And through that mess, through your discussions, your thinking, there's that advice that to me is really important and is a source of actual wellbeing in the job done.
But it's tricky, right? Because you've gotta be careful, again, not to overuse it. Because the flip side, which is really dangerous, and I think would be quite dangerous for a lot of lawyers that I know, is that perfectionism.
[00:15:34] Carla: Yeah. That's the overuse, right? Yes. Of the strength and then, and then there is the underuse too. Yes. Right. It can, it can go both ways. Um, you know, many people operate from their strengths without even realizing.
[00:15:49] Kathleen: Mm. Yes. Right. Well, I think I did that with love of learning for a long time.
[00:15:54] Carla: Yeah. We go about our day and it, you know, we can be in different modes.
We can be in get it done mode. We can be intentionally noticing what is working more, what am I doing here? And that awareness is the first step in this process. Like because what we are not aware of, we can't really grow and use the strengths with intention.
Right, and very often, we dismiss the strengths because, you know, they feel easy or natural.
That's often a sign that this is a top strength. This is, this is something that, you know, because it feels natural and easy, it's something that you do really well, like that it's part of your character.
Um. You know, and, and, and if it's something energized and feel effortless, that's another sign there.
Kathleen , how do people start exploring these strengths?
[00:16:59] Kathleen: Okay, so if you have never done this before, there is a great website that's available. We'll put in the link in the show notes. You can just Google the VIA character strength survey. It's a great resource.
You can do a free version. Um, I've always just done the free version. You don't need to go beyond that unless you really want to. And what that will do, it's research based. You'll be invited to fill in a, in a survey. You do need to devote time. I think from memory it was, might have taken me about 20 minutes.
Make sure that you've kind of got somewhere to sit quietly and that you're not going to be interrupted by clients or children or any others, um, so that you can really think about it. Um, and. Have a go and see what happens.
You'll, you'll get a highlight, I think, of some of your top five. And I think also, I recall some of the weak, like they're, they're all ranked, but you get your top five and so you'll be able to see to some of the ones at the bottom.
Um, you know, and we do emphasize that it's useful to focus on the strengths, but it can also be, helpful to potentially identify one that's down the bottom and think about that too. Like is there something in particular that would make a difference if you had a focus on that. Um, and we would encourage you, like when you get the results, just think on them. How do they resonate?
When do they show up for you in your work, in your broader life? What? What do they look like when you are at your best, or what about when you're at your worst?
So I think for me, you know, already, already I've given some good examples, but one might be like, well, okay, how can I harness that learning one when I'm feeling frustrated?
It would be thinking about, okay, if I'm doing something that I really don't like doing. Or that I'm not enjoying or that seems monotonous, how can I think about it differently? Like, could I learn something from it? And if so, what? How could I shift my focus so that I could learn something?
That is something that I have done on occasion, and I can't say that I magically, suddenly loved doing the thing, but at least I learned something and could approach it differently and get through it with perhaps a different attitude, if not outcome.
[00:19:25] Carla: Hmm.
[00:19:26] Kathleen: What about, we've mentioned a couple of times this idea of overuse.
Can you tell us more about that?
[00:19:32] Carla: Yeah. This is like, sometimes we lean on a strength so heavily like that. It can even become a liability, like you may, she gave the example of appreciation for beauty and excellence, you know, which is one of my top strengths as well. You know, sometimes we lean so much on, especially in the excellence part, to do the work so well that it can become perfectionism.
Yes. Like we are constantly raising that bar. Yes. And never feeling satisfied. Yes. You know? Um, but becoming aware of it. We can also notice when we're, you know, relying too much on that strength.
And that gives us an opportunity, like once we are aware, we can dial them up or we can dial them down. And that, and that piece, that awareness is so important because that is, you know, that gives us the flexibility to choose where we are going. Like we are capable. It's a strength, we can do it.
But how does that fit with everything else in my life?
[00:20:43] Kathleen: Yeah. And often with that too, I think that it's so easy to just go into automatic mode. Right, and with this comes deliberateness. It's what we're all about at the Thriving Lawyer, because ultimately that's what having a coaching approach is all about.
It's about identifying what we've previously taken for granted and not noticed and stepping back and noticing. Right? So this is just another really useful, and I would say central tool that we can use to gain that increased awareness.
[00:21:28] Carla: And, and Kathleen you talked about fairness. Um, but is there other strengths that are pretty common?
Um,
[00:21:36] Kathleen: with lawyers? Yeah. Well, I mean, look, I don't have solid data behind me on this, but I would guess as a lawyer, thinking about myself, thinking about all the lawyers I know that I studied with, that I've worked with over the years, it seems to me love of learning probably is a big one that comes up quite often.
I think judgment and critical thinking skills. Key, like that sense of judgment that comes where you know we're, well, that's what we're trained at the heart of being a lawyer. That's what it's all about, right? Analyzing issues from different perspectives before forming a view. Also, I think a big one is fairness.
That, that's the justifying, principle that so many of us go into law in the first place for. We wanna see that justice is done and that systems are followed. I think perseverance is another big one. You know, law can be challenging. It can require long hours and really difficult cases. Think of the lawyers who've just finished that weeks long case, with Erin Patterson being convicted of the mushroom murders, you know, exhausting for the lawyers involved.
Well, everybody involved, but let's just think about it from the lawyer's perspective. Um. And the uncertainty that comes, comes with the work too. Um, leadership stepping up under pressure, guiding our teams and our clients. Um, they're all some of those that I think would be quite common. So, you know, I encourage you, if you're listening, do take the time like it's 20 minutes that you will not regret.
Um, and if you even take away one concrete actions that you can take to just experiment and to think, well, what would happen if I just tried to deploy that strength or use it in a different way? So Carla, what do you say to that and what might you add in terms of how you would encourage lawyers to go about taking this further?
[00:23:45] Carla: Yeah, well look, start by taking the character strength survey. It's free, it's easy, you know, and that gives you a great window into what is already strong within you. Right? So once you've got your result, one way to do as well is like, pick one of your top strengths and write down three ways that you've used that strength in the past few days.
Because this is small reflections can really help you build that awareness. Yeah, not just how you've used the strength, but also like how they show up in the moment. Because then you might, you know, the more you notice them in action, the more you can make intentional choices about dialing them up or dialing them down.
If you started reflecting and then having this exercise, you just create more language, like when you're doing that thing again. Oh here's my strength, you know, or he's another opportunity and it gives more opportunities. Um, another way as well, like as, as you mentioned, is just like, use your strength in a new way.
Can I use in a different context? You know, gratitude is my strength, for example. Um, how might to bring gratitude into, a team meeting? Or how do I use creativity to solve a client's issue? For example, you know, like sort of stretch your strength a little bit.
[00:25:20] Kathleen: Absolutely Carla. And can I just add, you know, this is one thing that, um, just starting with those simple things can make a difference, but you can also take it much deeper.
Like that is something that people often end up getting coaching on, right? Because they wanna be able to explore how to really leverage those strengths in a deeper way. And that takes some pretty deep reflection sometimes to get that development and make those changes and make it stick. As well. And it's also something that we do go much deeper in, in the Thriving Lawyer.
It really is at the heart of one of the modules that we do, um, because of the impact that it can have in creating yet another part of that vision that you have of the best possible self that you wanna embody in your life so that you can then start kind of setting the right kind of goals. So it fits really neatly with that goal discussion.
But look, I think that that is probably a great place to wind up. So thank you so much for joining us. If you enjoyed this episode, share it with somebody you think would get value out of it or someone perhaps that you admire, that you think um, really uses their strengths is perhaps another option.
And don't forget to subscribe and remember, your strengths aren't just what you do well, their what will help you feel well too. So thank you. Thank you.
