β
β
[00:00:10] Kathleen: You are listening to The Thriving Lawyer with Kathleen Brenner and Carla Ferraz. I'm Kathleen, a highly experienced lawyer and an International Coaching Federation accredited coach.
[00:00:23] Carla: And I am Carla. Like Kathleen, I am an ICF certified coach and I have worked with top leaders and professionals, many of them lawyers, at some of the world's biggest organizations.
My focus is on using evidence based approaches to help my clients thrive at work and in the rest of their lives. Together,
[00:00:45] Kathleen: we bring you the Thriving Lawyer podcast, a podcast filled with ideas and inspiration, as well as practical tips to help you thrive as a lawyer and in the rest of your
life. Let's get into it.
[00:01:00] Speaker 4: Welcome to episode 17 of The Thriving Lawyer Podcast. I'm Kathleen Brenner, and I'm here today with my partner in all things the thriving lawyer, Carla Ferraz, and so we're here today. To move on from the discussion last week in our last episode, which was all around unmasking perfectionism in the legal profession.
Such an issue for so many lawyers that we see, and the research box us up about that. And so today we're gonna go a step further and think about this idea of self-compassion. We're gonna look at like, why does it matter for us in the legal profession? What did the client say about its impact? And we'll also explore some really practical strategies that you can apply immediately, like right away to begin to implement some of this work.
So welcome Kala. Perhaps a good place for me to start is actually looking at. Perfectionism. We talked about it last week and how it comes up, but I think it's useful to remind ourselves that the data really backs us up here. There's been study after study that looks at culture in the legal profession.
Just to quote one In my own jurisdiction in Victoria, the Victorian Legal Services Board and commissioner did a lawyer wellbeing report in 2019. One of the things that came from that in all their interviews with lawyers was the degree to which lawyers are brought up in this culture of perfectionism, and its encouraged and fostered from very junior ranks, from the time that they become lawyers, and that with that perfectionism, often what comes hand in hand with it is this self-criticism.
It's no surprise many of our listeners would be well aware of the very real wellbeing challenges that do exist in the legal profession. Everything from the higher rates of depression and anxiety and substance abuse that exist in comparison with the general population. Now, we are not psychologists here, but I think what we can say is that there are definitely cultural issues.
Very much connected to some of the reasons why lawyers might not be flourishing, and I think that the perfectionism and chronic self-criticism is probably something that is really fundamental there. You know, we as lawyers, we are fundamentally taught how to spot risks for our clients. And when we engage in that work, when we put on that pessimistic and critical lens as lawyers.
It's really easy to turn that lens onto ourselves, and in fact, no one teaches how not to be perfectionist or how not to be so self-critical that we are adversely affecting our wellbeing. When we think about that, this idea of self-compassion suddenly becomes a very powerful and attractive one being exercising self-compassion is not being weak, but it's somehow.
Exercising our strength and our resilience. So Carla, I haven't even let you get a word in yet, so I might provide an opening for you to kind of welcome yourself and then perhaps take this conversation on further by telling our listeners what we actually mean when we are referring to self-compassion.
[00:05:00] Speaker 5: Sure. Thank you. Thank you, Catherine. Thank you for this beautiful introduction and for the need of self-compassion as well. You mentioned that. Sometimes self-compassion can be perceived as weakness or a bit of fluff, right? But we look at the science, we see something really different. So self-compassion is a concept that has been extensively researched.
I think the main researcher here is Dr. Christian F. She's one of the pioneers in the field, and she defines self-compassion as a practice of treating yourself with the same kindness. And understanding that you would offer a friend that is struggling, you know, so it's not just about being nice to yourself.
There is like a robust psychological framework that is made up of three components, self kindness, common humanity, and mindfulness. So when you think about self-kindness is this idea of responding to your own failures and set setbacks with care, um, instead of criticism. A lot of the time people are quite afraid that if I go ease on myself, I will lose my edge.
And the research shows quite the opposite of that. So when we respond with harsh self-judgment. We actually reduce our motivation over time. And then self-kindness comes in like as an like an emotionally intelligent way of staying in the game. What is really important here is that to recognize that when you made a mistake, you are already down.
And that's exactly when you need the self-kindness the most. I'm though right when you, it's so easy to forget it that very moment, you are most likely to just ev all that knowledge might go out the window. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Because unfortunately, that's what we do. Like it is the moments that we bring that self-judgment, I should have done this different, why did I make this mistake?
And we forget that, you know. We didn't choose to make the mistake. Our intention wasn't there. There was things that led us to that, and by all means, sometimes we do need to reflect and understand and putting things in place to avoid the mistake in the future. But you know, like when we are down, when we are hurting, like it's not the time to come back and say, you know, give all that self judgment right then, and that that's the moment where we need to stop and apply care and recover and that self.
Kindness gives us the tools to do that, and then we can come back and, and analyze this situation and understand what, what went wrong. The second piece is the common humanity. So this is one that is really relevant in a profession like, um, like law, right? It means like that we recognize our mistakes and failure and emotional struggles as a natural part of being human.
It, it's the ability to say, this is really hard, and I'm not the only one going through this. I'm not the only person that make mistakes. And this often happens in, in, in high performance fields, you know, like, because we tend to assume that we, our struggle is prove that something is going wrong with us.
And, and this is where the voice come. Oh, everyone, everyone else is doing well. Everyone has, has this figured out. I'm the only one in this team that is falling behind. You know? And, and that kind of thinking really leads us to isolation and shame. Hmm. And, and, and like just you started mentioning, so they, in our conversation in the legal culture, like where competence, confidence in like, being correct, you know, like being in control, it's really well valued.
You know, has that added pressure to this. So, you know, when a, when a lawyer makes a mistake or gets a critical feedback or to really feels overwhelmed, um, they're often like suffering silence. Believing it's a personal failure or you know, rather than this is a universal experience, right? Yeah. We all go there to add something in.
[00:09:27] Speaker 4: I think what can also happen, and I've seen this and I've definitely done this myself at times. It's catastrophized about the implication or the outcome that suddenly, oh. You know, I remember my very first few months of legal practice when I was the graduate in the team. Mm-hmm. And I got all quite overwhelmed with one.
Attempted at advice that ended up with lots of red pen all, all, all over it. And of course, what's the thinking that comes with that when you're, oh, I will never be good enough to do this. There's something inherently wrong, rather than just taking it, well, this was an entirely new skill. Um, and suddenly I'd gone from university to the profession.
Right? It was all part of the learning experience, but that, that catastrophization of o. Because I made this mistake. Therefore, I can never, ever be successful in the moment. Kind of, you know, a leap, but one that might seem reasonable in the moment when we're caught up in that thinking and, you know, denying that, that self-compassion and engaging in that kind of rampant extreme self-criticism and doubt.
Yeah. Well, this is a beautiful example just to, to emphasize that what, that's what the ne the third aspect of self-compassion comes in is their mindfulness. It's the ability to notice, to go back where you say like, oh, I just left university. This is my first assignment. It's okay. Like, it's to be able to notice that like not, and not going into that default, or I should be here, you know?
[00:10:58] Speaker 5: And, and the mindfulness is really often where people begin to feel a real shift because in, in this context, it's like they, they become aware of their thoughts and their emotions. Without suppressing them or getting carried away, you know, like we have the emotions, the emotions don't have us. So it's about creating space to notice what's happening internally without getting completely carried away by what is happening.
You know? So like we, we don't feel over-identified. I can see how that could absolutely show up in the, in the legal profession. You know, that example I gave of the advice is a good one. But another really good example might be that if you are a barrister in Australia or the UK and you're working on a big case or a, you know, an attorney in the us, you know, it might be weeks of your life that you've poured into a really big piece of litigation.
[00:12:02] Speaker 4: And you lose. It could be really significant impacts for your client, even though you've put in all the effort that you've could, and yet here you are, you've lost. You know, that is inevitably going to be incredibly disappointing, but the default reaction could be if you don't have that self-compassion, I failed.
I should have done more. Maybe I'm just not good enough. Maybe I should quit this. Business and you know, become a writer or open that bar or cafe that I've always dreamed of the bookshop. You know, you might wanna throw it all in, but with self-compassion we can kind of, you know, you of course, being disappointed and having those emotions is entirely natural.
So we're not trying to get rid of that natural emotion. But what we want you to think about is how you can change the internal dialogue that comes along with the emotion. By bringing that self-compassion so you know the story that you might choose to tell yourself might be a different one. You might allow yourself that moment where those thoughts just come, but then you think, well, okay, this is a really difficult thing.
This is a really tough business. I worked really hard on this. I really do. Care matters to me what the outcome is really disappointing. But you know what? Losses happen to everybody. What do I do? Need for myself in order to move forward from this. Another thing might be, you know, getting, um, really difficult feedback, whether it's from a manager, um, your more, your more senior lawyer, or perhaps having a really difficult client.
Perhaps they're abusing you or perhaps they're, um. Really indicating that they weren't happy with the outcome. So self-compassion doesn't mean that you ignore what is where the feedback is constructive. There might be certain things that you choose to ignore if they're not valuable, but if the feedback is constructive, there might be something you absolutely need to learn from.
But it's about not taking that as kind of personal judgment about. Who you are as a human and or as a lawyer, right? Do you agree, Kala? Yeah. That, that, that's exactly what the, the over identification means, right? It, this happens when we fuse ourselves so tightly with the negative thought and emotion that we become them.
[00:14:28] Speaker 5: Like the example that you gave, that the person, you know, the case didn't go as well as, as they expected. So they say, I am a failure, so it's rather than I am a failure like. You know, this didn't go well. This didn't go well. I feel disappointed, right? So it's, I'm a terrible lawyer. No, this case didn't go as well as I planned.
You know, this kind of mental fusion like turns like a difficult moment into a full-blown identity crisis sometimes, right? Because our identity to become that. And then that's where the, this third component comes in. The mindfulness interacts. The cycle, like it gives you enough distance to recognize, well, this is a painful moment.
There is a mistake or whatever, that it's things that happen here, but this doesn't define me. So that if that shift, right. That allows for the compassion, the self-compassion to come in. Yeah. So what you're talking about is really that mindfulness. Essentially a form of self coaching, right? What you're doing is you are is the business of coaching, which is often when we coach, we'll be looking at what are the thoughts that come certain situation, and then look at the cycle of the behavior that comes with that and what does that thought lead us to do?
[00:15:50] Speaker 4: How does our environment affect us and how can we shift perhaps that thought to then change how we behave? And so perhaps that's a good place to talk about like a, a simple little technique that you can use, which is, you know, separating yourself essentially from that thought. You are identifying it and labeling it.
You're acknowledging how you're feeling that initial reaction. You're normalizing it because you're identifying, well, this is, this is normal. I'm not alone in feeling this. And then you're choosing a different thought by speaking to yourself. And a good technique is perhaps like. What would you say to a friend who was in that situation?
Like so often we're so nasty to ourselves, right? And we would never say that to a friend if they, if they called us up telling us how they were feeling after something, we'd speak to them in an entirely different way. So why don't we do that to ourselves? So Carla, I mean, that's like one technique, but how do we even go beyond that?
Like how can we. How can our lawyers that are listening today go away and actually really practice this or begin to at least, yeah. One aspect is to understand this, you know, the different concepts, the different parts of self-compassion that we are talking about here, and the other one is to put into practice, right?
[00:17:09] Speaker 5: Because self-compassion, it's a, if they're not there, it is a practice that you need to bring into your daily life. Um, the one that is one of my favorite practice that Dr. Kristin Neff suggests is very quick and, and powerful. It's just a self-compassion break and it, and it's really simple. It's just like recognizing like when you feel overwhelmed or embarrassed or disappointed, it's just like this is a moment of suffering.
And, and that helps you name what's happening instead. Instead of suppressing it, it's allowing you to show and then brings the, and bring that curiosity as well. And then the other part is like, well, and suffering is part of life, and that's the common humanity piece coming in. Everyone struggles somewhere, right?
And then you come to the third bit, it's like may. I be kind to myself this moment and that opens the door to a softer, more compassionate response, you know, to whatever that is happening in the moment. And you can say these in silence in your head, or if you are by yourself, you might be able to say out loud, or you can even write it down it.
The point is to acknowledge your pain. We doubt letting. Amplify or refuse to it, and then choosing to support yourself in a different way, um, and not shame yourself. Another practice can be journaling, just writing down how you feel, you know, you know, what would you say to a friend if you think about, you know, what if a friend was in this situation?
What advice would I give? How would I go about that with, we normally don't tell our friends, oh, you made a mistake, you're stupid. This quite the opposite. We normalize it, Frank, we said, oh, this is stuff. This feels well, well what can I do here differently? Yeah. And I think, you know, we talked about that a moment ago, but I think the journaling bit of the actual writing it down is what is, think about it a little bit more deeply.
[00:19:31] Speaker 4: So that can be a really good way to. Make sure that you take the time to explore it. Well, it's amazing what shows up, especially when we, we, we take, you know, take ourselves out of the situation and look from an outside perspective, like we usually are quite resourceful. We know what might work for us if we notice.
So what I'm hearing here is that. There are really simple things that we can do to begin to make self-compassion part of our daily practice, and it doesn't have to be hard or time consuming, but really what it is about is really pausing and taking that moment to separate ourselves from what it is that we're thinking.
Hmm, to choose more helpful thoughts. This is the business of coaching, but this is a really simple way to just do it in the moment. Now, of course, you're gonna forget sometimes we're humans, right? We're not perfect, so we can't be, we're seeking to do this with the perfectionism that we need to overcome, right?
So gotta accept that. It'll be partial. It'll be occasional, but at any attempt is probably of value. And that we can experiment and maybe just try something out. So you don't always have to be perfect, right? To be a high achiever, to be powerful, to be a great lawyer or even a good lawyer. So perhaps a good place to leave you, as you know to say, try one tool today.
Have a go. Think about this. Share it with a colleague or someone you know that you think might be of value. And you know, remember that if you do wanna go deeper, this is part of what we teach at the Thriving Lawyer and it's part of our signature course that is coming out very soon in August. So keep a good eye out for that.
And we'll also make sure that we put some resources that are helpful in the show notes. So. Our recommendation is if you are interested in going into this work too, you wanna read a little bit up about it, check out Dr. Christian Neff's website, self-compassion dot org. Um, you'll find some free guided meditations, some self-compassion exercises.
She also runs some workshops. So yeah, go, go and have a look too. Um, and thank you. And thank you, Carl. Is there anything that you'd like to add as we finish up here? Thank you. One last thing as well, just to add to what we've just discussed, is this, like, it's also useful to practice self-compassion, not just when we are overwhelmed, but just in, you know, just some time name.
[00:22:33] Speaker 5: Like, how am I feeling right now? Even if we're happy, even if everything is going well. Yeah, that's a good point, right, because that's just about treating ourselves well. Yeah. Yeah. So more chances are than when we do need, we will remember rather than it being an emergency action. Mm. Part of what we do.
[00:22:54] Speaker 4: Yeah, that's a really good point, Carla. Thank you for adding that. And look, I hope that this is of value to you. We love bringing you these podcasts because we get to engage in these ideas and always explore them and learn something too. And we love the discussions that it creates. So thank you, and we look forward to being back next week.
[00:23:20] Kathleen: Thank you so much for listening to this episode of the thriving lawyer with Kathleen Brenner and Carla Ferraz, if you like it, please share it with your lawyer friends and colleagues, and tag us on Instagram at @thriving lawyer or on LinkedIn via the links in the show notes. And if you liked what you heard, please drop a review in apple podcasts.
It really helps spread the word.
If you'd like to work with us, check out our free resources and our signature course, the thriving lawyer. Which you will find at www.thrivinglawyer.com.au. You can also download our free guide, the lawyer's guide to thriving: a sustainable roadmap for success.
It's filled with great tips and ideas so that you can begin to make real change. You'll find the link to that in our show notes.
We hope this podcast has given you massive value. And that you can use it to begin to create your own thriving life. A life where you can thrive as a lawyer. And in the rest of your life.
