[00:00:10] Kathleen: You are listening to The Thriving Lawyer with Kathleen Brenner and Carla Ferraz. I'm Kathleen, a highly experienced lawyer and an International Coaching Federation accredited coach.
[00:00:23] Carla: And I am Carla. Like Kathleen, I am an ICF certified coach and I have worked with top leaders and professionals, many of them lawyers, at some of the world's biggest organizations.
My focus is on using evidence based approaches to help my clients thrive at work and in the rest of their lives. Together,
[00:00:45] Kathleen: we bring you the Thriving Lawyer podcast, a podcast filled with ideas and inspiration, as well as practical tips to help you thrive as a lawyer and in the rest of your
life. Let's get into it.
Welcome to episode 18 of The Thriving Lawyer. I'm Kathleen Brenner, and I'm here today with my co-host Carla. Welcome, Carla. It's great to see you again.
[00:01:11] Carla: Hi, Kathleen. Thank you. Yeah, I'm really excited for this episode today.
[00:01:16] Kathleen: Well, today's episode is a special one because what we are doing. It's announcing the launch of our signature course.
We are really excited to do this because it has been a very long time coming. We have been working on this behind the scenes probably for, oh, over a year, maybe a year and a half, and it is going to finally be available on August the 13th. We also have a sale for the first week where if you purchase the course, you are going to get certain bonuses that we will talk about shortly.
So, I think before we go into any of that, just want to make a few comments about the why and you know, the timing for this is really important, the legal profession is still in real need right now. You know, we've, looked at through the course of doing this study after study, both internationally and Australian.
We'll put a couple of examples in the show notes that show that lawyers are experiencing disproportionately high levels of stress, of anxiety, of depression and burnout. So, you know, too many of us are silently struggling behind the scenes.
Even if we aren't suffering from depression or anxiety, there can be real wellbeing concerns about the work hours that people are working and the realities of modern legal practice.
This is in the context and it's certainly true that I think particularly in recent years and really probably since the pandemic, there has absolutely been an increase on emphasis about lawyer wellbeing, but too often what I have noticed, both as a lawyer and a coach, so as a lawyer, being on the receiving end of some of these kind of courses is that the prescribed solutions are often simplistic or they're not proactive enough.
You know, too often you'll go, you'll have gone probably. Sure that you'll have attended at least one of these seminars in recent news as a lawyer, where you'll have this one hour training on wellbeing, which will tell you as the lawyer what to do, but it doesn't go deep enough and it doesn't tell you how.
It doesn't work with you to create a, a different way of thinking and, and begin to help you experiment and create new possibilities, you know, the implementation is left entirely to you to just figure out, and even worse, what will happen because these are kind of one hour things, it's very easy when we are busy that we end up just, feeling like we've overwhelmed or we're close to burnout. There's too much on. So what we'll do is we'll just place those wellbeing seminar notes into the draw.
They'll go into that bottom drawer. They'll be covered by other notes and things we forget about them 'cause it's all just too hard or perhaps it's too shallow and doesn't really address our needs. So within that context, what I have become increasingly aware of over recent years and as I, I have undertaken changes in my own legal career, but there are far too many lawyers out there who are absolutely struggling, barely surviving.
Um, or perhaps they're just doing okay, but that's not really good enough. Who wants to just do okay? Um, you know, they actually want to thrive. They're wanting something more. And in, in my view, that's just not good enough. Absolutely.
[00:04:58] Speaker 7: And that's why we've created a thriving lawyer, right? It is just to give lawyers um, the tools to go beyond that surviving.
To actually help them thrive, not only in the legal profession, but also in their life as a whole. Um, so today's episode is a two part series, um, and it's all about the course. So, and in today, and in the next one, episode 19. So in the first part, we're going to share why we created the Thriving Lawyer and the real issues the course is going to address.
And then in \ part two, we'll give you a closer look at what the course covers, what are the key skills and the practices and the evidence-based strategies that you will walk away with if you go through the Thriving Lawyer course.
So if you've been looking for a healthier and more sustainable way to practice law, and you want.
You are really going to benefit from this course because that's what exactly what, what it's all about, right? It's about how do you thrive within your career and your life.
So Kathleen, I think a, a good place for us to get started exploring is, what, what's, well, what was your vision for the thriving lawyer?
How did you come up with the concept in the first place?
[00:06:22] Speaker 6: Yeah. Thank you for that. What I think it's useful to kind of maybe well, useful place to start is, you know, when I came to coaching in 2019, what I found was is that through undergoing coaching and experimenting with making changes, you know, I was, not unhappy at that time, things were going okay, but I did want to make changes and I was starting to think about the next stage of life and what I wanted, and what I realized was that what I was looking for was a different kind of legal career. Being a lawyer was really important to me. I love being a lawyer.
I also wanted to add in being a coach and doing this work, sort of a portfolio career approach, where I was the one that was more in control and I felt that I was missing that at that point, but I didn't even become aware of the full possibilities. You know, the coaching was one side, but also the social change that the pandemic created provided this very fertile ground where I thought there's all of these new possibilities, ways of being, that can res that, that enabled me to really increase my levels of thriving.
And what I became increasingly frustrated when I looked around the legal profession was that kind of one hour wellbeing session that people were getting that didn't really go far enough. And so initially, like when I started coaching, I thought, oh, end up coaching women, women because, you know, I want, um, women to flourish.
And, \ I thought that that was a really good, you know, I'm a woman. That that clientele I could speak to and relate to.
But what I realized was, no, there was, you know, that is absolutely crucial and there are plenty of people doing great work in that space. But I saw as I went along and as I learned more about this world, about the need in the legal profession, and I thought I've got a really unique perspective being a practicing lawyer, but also having engaged with all of this work so deeply.
I wanted to be able to pass on everything that I had learned and continue to learn. Um, and I thought that there was a real possibility to create something that was genuinely new, that something that really could help people, that could really provide lawyers with a space to make real kind of changes and start to think about what intrinsically motivates them. Like what, what is the kind of legal career that they want? Like too often people kind of get stuck. They'll, they'll start in a career. Perhaps they even end up in a particular legal, um, job because that's just the rotation that they got placed in when they were junior, before they know it, they're a senior associate or a partner, you know, in that area.
And perhaps they've never actually thought about, is that the path that they wanted? Does that, does that suit them? What, is important to them? Is that legal job giving them what they want? Or are they just barely surviving and now working so many hours and having jettisoned their wellbeing for something that's not even really intrinsically important to them?
Or maybe if it is intrinsically important, then they're absolutely doing the right kind of work, which plenty of lawyers are, right? They're really passionate. They might have a real commitment to justice, for example, and be working in a particular area of the law, advancing that. But you see a different set of problems there, right, where people are getting so burnt out because they're so committed to their work that
they're no longer able to flourish. And what that actually means is not only are they affecting themselves, but they're not even saving their clients the best because they can't show up fully because they're so on the edge of burnout, if not well past it. So, you know, we are not psychologists, but we are both really well trained coaches and there is such sense of, well, I believe such possibility here for real engagement and change, um, that goes beyond just that yoga and fruit basket kind of solution. Not, not that there's anything wrong with yoga. You know, I do yoga several times a week and I certainly eat fruit. But, you know, those things in and of themselves do not meet the complexity of the moment and, and the challenge that lawyers are facing.
And I think the other part of that, when you think about the lay of the land with a lot of wellbeing seminars in the legal profession is a lot of them do address what is really important, which is mental illness, but they kind of start and stop there. And you know, it's really crucial that we're doing absolutely everything possible to ensure that when people are exhibiting those signs, that they get the support that they need and that people have the tools to recognize it and seek the medical or the psychological support that they require. You know, that's really fundamental.
But I think we've got a real problem if that's where we start and stop. And what I think is the role with what we are doing here with the Thriving lawyer is to help lawyers who are maybe, you know, doing okay, struggling a bit, but not in a deep seated way that they'd need the support.
Helping those lawyers to be able to create that thriving, flourishing life. You know, something that's really what I'm talking about is being proactive here. Helping or providing a really evidence-based, course that can help people create their own unique vision of a thriving life and bring that closer to reality, lives where they can thrive both as a lawyer and in the rest of their life. Um, you know, and I didn't wanna leave implementation or the how to, the lawyer to work out. Um, and you know, more specifically, having gone through law school, being a lawyer for many years now, in a lot of ways I have been very fortunate. I've deliberately created a career, even prior to becoming a contractor and working for a new look model law firm, which I do part-time and remotely now.
But in the old days when I was a public servant, yes, it was much more structured and it was full-time, traditional kind of arrangement. But I had deliberately chosen that environment because the work was meaningful to me. And I knew that the conditions were better, like I fully acknowledged that. But what I did witness even with that was lawyers around me struggling under constant pressure, long work hours.
The friends that I have from law school were often, you know, barely keeping their heads above water with the pressure. A lot of them had left the law and created alternative careers because they just found that they couldn't live the kind of lives that they wanted to. It was so easy for the lawyers that I saw to get stuck in this kind of relentless grind and, um, you know, even feel like you've absolutely lost connection with why you went into law in the first place.
You know, perhaps you've become really, focused on external measures of success. You've totally forgot what it is that you actually wanted. You've really internalized other people's vision or ideas about what it means to be successful. And unfortunately, in a high performing, and really high status profession like the law, I think it's really easy to fit or to fall within that kind of thinking.
So, you know, they're the problems that I saw I got the idea and really wanted to create something, um, that was. Informed by the science and the evidence. So that includes coaching, psychology and positive psychology. That's really important to me. Um, because, you know, coaching is an unregulated industry.
There are a lot of people that call themselves coaches with little training, or little engagement with, evidence informed approaches. And as I have learned and seeing how powerful these bodies of work are, I wanted to be able to share that and, you know, grow. I'm not here pretending that I know everything.
I too, through this process, have gone through this learning and continue to be very much immersed within it. And I love the fact that as I can grow and learn, I can share what I've learned. And hopefully impact the profession really, so that I can help lawyers get that clarity about what they want to be able to be, truly flourishing, thriving, and to bring unique vision they've created closer to reality.
So Carla, I've covered a lot there. Maybe I invite like some of your reaction to that and perhaps why you joined me. Because, you know, I tinkered for this with all for a long time, but realized it was something that I couldn't do alone. And you and I were coaching each other, we were sharing knowledge, we're in a knowledge like a circle that shared our knowledge.
We'd become friends and I quickly realized that you were the person that I wanted alongside me, and then had the mission of. deciding that I was going to be brave enough to ask you.
[00:16:02] Speaker 7: Yeah. Um, well, thank you. Thank you. So for the, the beautiful deep explanation, you know, the, the, I can really see your values in there as you were sharing, right?
The, the service, the learning showing up, I think just your vision, like when I remember the first time you shared it really resonates with me because there is a, you know, one of my values is it's impact, like positive impact, right? The ability to create positive impact in different contexts, in different parts of my, life.
But, you know, with the thriving lawyer, there was that very clear and like, like the way that you just described, you know, it's an industry that would benefit a lot from the concepts that we have learned and implemented, you know, in our personal lives.
So as a coach, my work was really, um, well still is really focused on supporting leaders in really, complex organization, like really complex settings.
So helping them navigate the, demands of the environment, you know, and while and in helping them stay grounded to what truly matters to them. And I think that the legal profession is very much that, right? It's a very complex environment. Like you mentioned. There is the status, this, there's a lot of high achievers, most people work really hard, but how could we bring some evidence-based approaches, you know, from, from coaching, psychology, and positive psychology to help people create really last, um, and real changes in their lives, you know? So, um, yeah. I think when, when you shared the vision with me, I was just like, okay, so there's a great opportunity here. And, and plus, you know, for us as well to work together, to learn from each other, to bounce ideas. There was this aspect of it as well.
Um, yeah, but you know. For lawyers, it's just, there's so much pressure, right, that it can, it's very easy to slip into autopilot, like just going from one thing to the other, um, to the, the next urgent thing. And we can lose sight of, some very important questions. You know, am I developing, growing the way that I want to, you know, am I leaving my values here within my job and my life?
Am I thriving, but not just professionally, but as a whole person, other aspect of my life as well with my family, with the way that I take care of myself, you know? So it's, it's like the course is all about moving, beyond the external definitions of success and bringing a more self-authored way of leading the life that you're living.
Like with, with bring your, your awareness, at least in the beginning, right? Like the awareness of what am I doing here? Um, yeah, so that's why I felt so called to co-create the course with you. You know, we wanted to go beyond the surface level, um, approaches to, to wellbeing that you've explained.
And yeah, and just to help lawyers reflect, you know, in their lives, in their careers and in design some meaningful and sustainable changes that are within their control. Um, so not another should on the to-do list. So this is a very deeply supportive pathway towards thriving. We really believe that the magic is to integrate the professional excellence, but with your own personal wellbeing as well.
So the way that you look after yourself, it really matters. Um, that's fundamental
[00:19:49] Kathleen: to us.
[00:19:50] Carla: Absolutely right. Especially if we are in a professional of serving others, like even myself as a coach. If I'm not looking after myself, how can I have a conversation about, with somebody else about it, with their own wellbeing?
Thank
[00:20:04] Kathleen: you, Carla. Um, what I wanna just reflect on there is how much I like your values too, in terms of, the service element of what you're doing is coming through there, but also like me, the learning. And I have to say that one of the most enjoyable and challenging parts of this is the, what we've created together and that kind of learning and collaboration, \
uh, because what, you know, how to put it, in the last year and a half, the work that we have done in the Thriving lawyer has absolutely become such a, um, real, challenging, learning filled collaboration. Um, it's involved so many trips between you, where you live in, um, Noosa on the Sunshine Coast, me and Melbourne. Plenty of sessions where we are putting our heads together to come up with ideas and thoughts and create.
Um, you know, we didn't use any AI at all in the creation of this.
This was our blood, sweat, and tears and, and joy as well. But, um, that all the way into this to create something that was full of integrity, that met the needs of lawyers head on.
Drawing on both the experience that we both bring to it, me as a lawyer and coach and you with a coach with so much deep experience coaching professionals in really challenging complex situations, including lawyers. So, you know, we've had to really grow, haven't we, as we've done this?
[00:21:50] Carla: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. It's, we had to really stretch ourselves, you know, um, not just in, in what we were creating, but like in working together, ranking, learning from each other and learning our own tendencies and the ways to work and how it, and, and the, the relationship that we've created as well.
Um, which is fascinating, like being a coach and, and being very self-reflective. We reflect on our s and we bring together and we, and that there's a lot of that, right? Um, and look, and we really needed to figure out so many things along the way and the processes been so rewarding. I never expected, uh, to see myself as, you know, in a podcast with you filming, learning how to film, learning how to put teleprompter together, set up the camera, all the things that we did like liquid, our, um,
[00:22:41] Kathleen: it was hours the first time. Put the teleprompter in the video and work out how to get it all together when we were trying to film the course,
and the power went off. Remember the first time. Then we've got Kate.
[00:22:53] Carla: Well, now we're ready to go.
There was no power. Um, so it's been a really rich experience, right? Like, and probably because it was, um, really challenging, you know, and we had to learn so much from it. Um, you know, even when we were like knee deep designing the modules and the baits, you know, debating the best way to support Lawrence through the program, there was so much richness, you know, in, in the creation and the things that we.are
Learning. So we, we are really proud that, you know, we, we really hope that the lawyers that go through the course really get, you know, a positive benefit and learn about themselves and implement some of the actions.
[00:23:36] Speaker 6: You will absolutely make change if you go, even if you engage fully with one aspect, like one module and you took that seriously.
Like, for example, just to pick one example, if you pick the values part of it and you really went into that. That alone will create real change, let alone if you engage fully. But I also just wanna, before we move on, tap into one thing that really struck me from what you just said in terms of that process.
And I think, you know, it was challenging at times. It was really difficult because it was a really big project. Probably far bigger than we ever imagined when we took it on in terms of the amount of work it would take, even just to get to this point where we are ready to have it, share it with the world now.
But it was also really joyful at times, and I think because it was so growth filled it has really changed me. I have grown, I have learned so much and transformed even further, like this was me in, in creating this, doing the course at such a deep level that the outcomes kind of taken care of themselves in some way, but the emphasis was on that process and it was engaging in that that has been so enjoyable.
What do you think, Carla??
[00:24:58] Speaker 7: Yeah. Resonate the same, the same for me. That's exactly the same experience I've, I've had and never, the process of creating the course and putting the ideas together at the same time, reflecting on them myself, there was, there was so much that we learned, you know, like a has changed me.
I'm completely d. Person and a lot more empowered, I would say, you know, because the things that I was quite uncomfortable with, I got experience and, and, and experience things that we are uncomfortable with. It's really cool, like, you know,
[00:25:29] Kathleen: I just wanna give one example that's really powerful that I think for, for me, which is that when we, like were creating the content of the course, there was one aspect that you were really strong on that I knew was my weak point, and that was my engagement.
Consistently with physical exercise and, um, the, like, the habits, the habits that supported that, and having really, um, clear goal and habits around that aspect of my wellbeing. And through going through this process, like, you know, the, I did have a couple of health issues that I needed to attend to that also provided an added level of motivation, but without doubt.
Engaging so deeply with this course content has absolutely changed where I am at now. Like it's unthinkable where I'm at now compared to two years ago in that space, and I don't think I would've got there without this.
[00:26:30] Carla: Amazing,
[00:26:31] Speaker 6: yeah.
[00:26:33] Speaker 7: Yeah, that's a great example. When you started like creating, you already knew there was important.
Creating this space to reflect and then started like challenging yourself. What I'm gonna do about it, how do I create space for that to exist? And it wasn't very simple, right? You started small, I remember like you started with the little micro breaks and then you built into that and then built into something else and it kept evolving.
How can the walk the longer walks and then you got into the, it's a process, right? Of coming back and say, well, is that enough? Or actually, I could do a little more. And building on it. And it wasn't like a some of decision set or now with the routine that you have today. Right. You built
[00:27:12] Speaker 6: that routine. And in fact, if I'd have tried to start with that, I probably would've given up in fear or like it was too much, too much change.
Like it had to be a process of experimentation.
[00:27:22] Speaker 7: Um, so like, I just wanna tap a little bit on, on why we think this course is, it's different than the other programs that are out there, right? Because it, it goes beyond the sort of stress management or professional development. This make the, the difference is this course is designed for lawyers by people who truly understand the culture, the challenges, you know, and what is at stake here.
And it's grounded in science. We didn't just pull ideas outta thin air, like everything we teach here, it's backed up by decades of research. It's, you know, positive psychology, coaching, psychology, neuroscience, and wellbeing. Um,
[00:28:05] Speaker 6: so, and it's also interactive, right?
[00:28:07] Speaker 7: Mm-hmm.
[00:28:08] Speaker 6: Like that's the key, like Yeah.
You know it, yes, it is on demand. If you do the course without coaching, right, so you do get access to the six modules, the videos, you work through it by yourself, but it's still not a passive sit back and listen course. This is not a course where you just listen to the content you learn and that that's it.
You can do that. You won't get much out of it. You'll learn some concepts, but the change won't be there. But what we have spent a lot of effort doing is creating really practical tools and exercises for you in real time as you go through the modules to really reflect on how you can apply them in your own life and to start to build, you know, what you could term a toolkit that you can return to again and again as you need.
We have also created that option that you can purchase coaching alongside the course.
So, you know, even though we've created the course in a way that really emphasized you implementing the changes, if you want to go to even deeper, you could work with us, one of us, um, you'll have a choice, um, about who is your coach, whether it's me or whether it's Carla.
Um, if you wanna go even deeper so you can purchase that. At beginning three coaching sessions, um, and we'll explore and build on the insights that you've gained from the course. Carla, is there anything you'd like to add to that?
[00:29:47] Carla: I think you summarized it very well.
Maybe just one point, you know, the, this course thriving in general, right, isn't a, isn't about lowering your standards or caring less about your work. It's actually quite the opposite is to build the inner resources so you can show up at work. Without burning out. So you can start looking after yourself and, and front in place.
What is like, you know, that with your inner values, what do I actually want to do and how do I put that into practice? So it's very practical. The course, like there's teaching, but there's a lot of, reflection and, and engaging with the material and, and adapting to your own reality.
[00:30:26] Kathleen: Thank you Carla. That is probably a good place for us to, to close off. We've covered a lot of ground today. If this resonates with you, if you are ready to stop surviving and you wanna start thriving, we'd love for you to join us in this course. You can join us as an individual, but you might also wanna consider talking to your employer about covering the costs for you to do this course.
And of course if you are a legal manager and you want to get this for your team, please come and talk to us. We'll put our email in the show notes, um, because we can give you, um, uh, really good value deals in order to get a, a bulk, , purchase of licenses for, for your team members.
We are going to be launching on Wednesday the 13th of August.
Uh, we are going to have an opening sale where you get certain bonuses. There'll be three one hour seminars that you can get as well as part of the course. And we'll be having a series of daily lives where we talk about different thriving lawyer themes. Little bit deeper into the course. Um, and you know, there'll be one where we'll show you inside the course so you can see firsthand.
So we really look forward to sharing it with you. So thank you for listening.
Thank you so much for listening to this episode of the thriving lawyer with Kathleen Brenner and Carla Ferraz, if you like it, please share it with your lawyer friends and colleagues, and tag us on Instagram at @thriving lawyer or on LinkedIn via the links in the show notes. And if you liked what you heard, please drop a review in apple podcasts.
It really helps spread the word.
If you'd like to work with us, check out our free resources and our signature course, the thriving lawyer which you will find at www.thrivinglawyer.com.au. You can also download our free guide, the lawyer's guide to thriving: a sustainable roadmap for success.
It's filled with great tips and ideas so that you can begin to make real change. You'll find the link to that in our show notes.
We hope this podcast has given you massive value. And that you can use it to begin to create your own thriving life. A life where you can thrive as a lawyer. And in the rest of your life.
