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[00:00:10] Kathleen: You are listening to The Thriving Lawyer With Kathleen Brenner and Carla Ferraz. I'm Kathleen, a highly experienced lawyer and an International Coaching Federation accredited coach.
[00:00:23] Carla: And I am Carla. Like Kathleen, I am an ICF certified coach and I have worked with top leaders and professionals, many of them lawyers, at some of the world's biggest organizations.
My focus is on using evidence based approaches to help my clients thrive at work and in the rest of their lives. Together,
[00:00:45] Kathleen: we bring you the Thriving Lawyer podcast, a podcast filled with ideas and inspiration, as well as practical tips to help you thrive as a lawyer and in the rest of your
life. Let's get into it. β
Welcome to episode 20 of Season two of the Thriving Lawyer. I'm Kathleen Brener, and I'm here today without Carla, but I am interviewing somebody. We haven't had a guest for a little while, and I'm super excited about this episode because I've really been wanting to share more other experiences. So really connect with other lawyers who have got an interesting story to tell, who have created a career on their own terms.
And really kind of bucking the trend in terms of the kind of life and career that they have. So with that, I might just hand over. I've got Mike Rosalky , who's a colleague of mine that I, um, have met over the last oh couple of years now, and we work together at the same firm Lawyerbank. So Mike, how about you just, um, give us a little intro about who you are and your own story in your own words.
Thanks very much for having me, Kathleen. My name's Mike Rosalky . I also work at Lawyerbank, uh, along with Kathleen. And I've been at Lawyerbankfor, uh, a bit under six years, and Lawyerbankis a firm that specializes in secondment, so I'm onto my, I think it's my eighth secondment now across the Commonwealth government and Victorian government.
These days I'm mostly doing commercial law. In the past I've done a mix of admin law, statutory interpretation, and kind of just general advice work. Before Lawyerbank, I was at a an ICT company and I was their operations manager and legal counsel. And before that I was a permanent Commonwealth government lawyer for three different government entities based in Canberra and.
I was providing legal advice, mainly doing admin law and statutory interpretation and a bit of commercial law as well. And I started my career as a graduate at the Attorney General's Department doing kind of legal policy work that was back in 2013. So thank you. So that, you know, that, that story about starting out as a public servant and kind of having a number of different experiences and then ending up where we are now in Lawyerbank.
Um, you know, the, we've got a number of colleagues who've kind of taken that path, but I'd love to hear from you about your own story and like the kind of considerations that led you to. Make such a change, you know, Lawyerbank, six years, you know, it is a different model. It's a different way of working.
How did, how did you get there, Mike? Yeah, well it was a, a bit of a funny story in that I was working for this private IT company and because I was doing a lot of client interactions, the owner of the company said, can you create a LinkedIn profile? And so I, I did. And then. One of the partners of Lawyerbankadded me on LinkedIn and we, we grabbed coffee and, and that kind of, um, one thing led to another.
Um, so it was, it was a lot of luck, I think, in involved, and I actually quite liked where I was working at the ICT company and I, I kind of stayed on with them doing ad hoc work for a number of years after I joined Lawyerbank. But yeah, Lawyerbank's been great for me. I, I like the variety, uh, of the secondments that I do meet
tons of different lawyers. And the cool thing is that actually on every secondment I, I tend to work with one or more really good lawyers who are permanent employees, generally of my client site. And I learn tons from them because everyone's kind of got a different way of working, different way of thinking about issues, different experiences.
So I get to, to learn from all of those lawyers, which is really cool. And I think the other thing, excuse me, that I like about, uh, the Lawyerbankmodel is, is the flexibility. So kind of on, I work, I don't work fulltime for Lawyerbankthese days and that gives me some time to do some volunteer work. I'm interested in animal law.
I do some volunteer work in the animal or space, uh, which I've done for over a decade now. And yeah, the Loy Bank model gives me flexibility to. Mike, when, when I, you know, I relate to so much of that story because for me, to the Lawyerbankmodel has meant that I've been able to work part-time and also pursue other interests like and other career goals like this.
The thriving lawyer, my coaching, my study, and it's a flexibility. They couldn't have kind of anticipated what that would bring and what I have found for myself is that that kind of portfolio career. Has given me an incredible amount of diversity, but it also, that flexibility has been really important for my own wellbeing because I've been able to kind of more deliberately create the kind of the balance of the different kind of work that I wanna do while still getting to do really good legal work with really good people, but not be my all.
That's one of the things I hear from a lot of lawyers sometimes when they get at that burnt out end, right? That they're working so many hours in, in the one job, they don't have the flexibility. So I'm curious from your point of view, like is what I said resonated and what in particular maybe has it brought you in terms of thinking broadly lit more broadly?
Like about your own wellbeing? Yeah. Well it's, it's. A really good point, Kathleen, and I think it really depends on the type of person that you are. For me, I'm the type of person that I, I need to be doing, pursuing my, my interests and my hobbies. And if I'm not doing those, it really affects my mental health.
And so for me it's just a non-negotiable. I love playing sport. I play a lot of different sports and they really increase the quality of my life. If I had a job where I was working 70 hours a week, let's say, where I was just sitting down looking at a computer screen, doing that work 70 hours a week, and I wasn't able to play soccer, play tennis, play golf, do martial arts training, go snowboarding, uh, do those types of things, then I'd probably be quite depressed and I just wouldn't en enjoy my life.
It just, there wouldn't be a point for me to do that type of work. Because it would affect the quality of my life so much. So for me, that work-life balance, it's not just a, a cliche for me, it's, it's a non-negotiable because sometimes some, there have been parts of my career where I have been burnt out working.
There was a, a per point in time when I was working five days a week for Lawyerbankand my friend and colleague Naman Kranz and I were, were running a private animal law firm as well on the side and we, we were running litigation matters kind of in our spare time. And it was just crazy. And it was, it was like, uh, it was too much and it did affect the quality of my life.
And I don't wanna go back to that, but that's just me. I mean, there, there's probably other lawyers out there who are happy working seven days a week even, because they love the law so much. And, and that's, that's fine. But for me, I need that work life balance. Yeah, it's interesting. See, I'm not actually a fan of this concept of balance because this idea of balance, right?
Is this idea that everything would be evened out, right? So it was almost like equal portions of X, Y, and Z. When I do my coaching, and I hear that when I often challenge clients to think about a different concept, which is work life integration, okay? Because that doesn't necessarily mean like, it's almost like you might have heard that, you know, the gas, the old, the gas burners on the stove, right?
You've got different burners four to six depending on how big your stove top is, and you might have pots on any one of them. You can up the gas or lower any one time. It's not like they're all even. But what I'm hearing like for you is you've got an awful lot on, like, you just reeled off. I didn't count them like maybe half a dozen different sports.
As well as all your work. You're talking about your, the work that you used to do in the animal law space. We haven't even got to your yoga teaching business yet. But see, it's an awful lot on, but it's what I, what I'm hearing with like in my coach lens on, is a lot of intrinsic motivation there. This, that you and what you wanna do and what you were saying is you need to pursue those interests.
So the kind of career you created really reflects that. Am I hearing all of that? Right. Probably, and I think it's maybe, I think it's taken me a long time to kind of figure out what is really important to me, and that's maybe just my lack of emotional intelligence. I'm not sure, but it's, I think the last few years in particular, it's become more and more clear to me that, you know, that those things that I do on the side, they're not actually just hobbies.
They're just so integral to my life that, and they really in increase and improve the quality of my life. And when I'm not doing them, I'm, you know, I'm grumpy, I'm less happy, I'm, I'm a worse partner, these types of things. So yeah, I think maybe not so much been by design until recently when I've kind of realized how important they are to my life.
Yeah. I think some of that is a matter of just pure experience too. And I mean, it's funny that, you know, I've really got into this work that I do now and coaching since, well really it started properly 2019. 2020, but I think a lot of lawyers that I speak to, you know, like people everywhere, there was a big reassessment too, post the pandemic I think about, we're all stuck for so long.
There was a lot of, for those of us. The kind of jobs we had, we weren't necessarily out in the front lines. Right. We were sitting at our desks at at home, locked dog. A lot of reflection time. Was that a dynamic do you think too? In in, yeah. You know what? I actually think you're right because for me, I would say for the last, pretty much five years, I would say over 90% of my work, possibly closer to, to 95% of my work has been done remotely.
And it's, I think it's affected me in a range of different ways. I mean, working from home is, uh, convenient. I can take the dogs for more walks and if, and there's, you know, there's more time for me to go running, for example. But I've kind of, I feel like my social skills have really declined and now a large part of my social life is actually.
Playing sport, catching up with people at soccer and martial arts training and tennis and golf and, and at yoga and stuff like that. And yeah, I just haven't been going into the, the office hard, hardly at all. And, and I actually, yeah, it, it's, I, it, it has, I think affected, certainly affected me in, in some way.
Um, and I think probably it's socially, I feel like I, my social skills are a lot worse than they used to be. And my, my, my filter's a lot worse than it used to be and these types of things. So. Yeah, well look, I think it affected us all. It's interesting, um, you know, because I work remotely too. 'cause you know, my, all my colleagues are pretty much in Canberra or, or, or Sydney.
Um, I expect it's very similar for you and definitely having to be much more proactive in that space, that social space. If I'm not organized, things can drift. So, yeah, that being proactive is important. Um, but I've also found on the, on the flip side, what it does is. That extra time and the flexibility, there is no way that I'd be able to go, for example, to the gym a few times a week, do yoga a few times a week, do my coaching business if, if I added up my old commute.
You know, even when you live 20 minutes, half an hour from the city, by the time you add in the bits on the end, it's an hour each way. You know, if you think about the old days, 10 hours a week, that's a massive chunk of time, isn't it? Yeah, that's right there. There's, um, pros and cons to remote work for sure.
So look, maybe leaving that behind and going, I was really interesting, you know, you mentioned Nam before and that you used to do in animal law and I actually interviewed Naman about that work and the what came clear. Clearly through Norman's words was the absolute passion and the, the purpose of that kind of work.
But what I'm hearing from you too is the flip side. And this is often a common theme that comes up when lawyers are very purpose-driven, that sometimes, you know, and for you that was a second role like you had, that you did on top of your other employment. But it could be, you know, you're a, you're a barrister in a, in a area that you're really passionate about, or a solicitor in a particular area of law that's maybe got a, um, not-for-profit kind of motive, for example.
And one of the things that you see is burnout there for completely different reasons to the, you know, doing a different area of law where you're kind of just working and you're getting the money, et cetera. And I think that's really important. And I'm wondering about how you, I think you moved away from that eventually because, was it because of that kind of just, it was all too much with everything else that you went on and do, do you relate to that comment about, you know, the risk of being purpose driven is, is that you've perhaps gotta even be more careful about the boundaries you set and how you look after yourself.
'cause the temptation is to absolutely throw yourself in the work. Yeah, I think that that's a, uh, a good point. And certainly one of the difficulties for, for Nina and me was that because, you know, we, we care deeply about the welfare of animals and we were representing clients who also cared about, deeply about animals.
We would often not charge clients, which is not the way to run any business. So our, we were, we were kind of aiming for 10% kind of pro bono work, but it ended up being. I dunno, over 50% pro bono. And then a lot of the matters were really challenging. It's, it wasn't just providing legal advice, it was like going through litigation.
And that can take an enormous amount of time. And with litigation, once you've kind of taken the matter on it, you kind of have to see it through, well, not all the time, but. Most of the time you do because you're representing a client and you know, they don't, they might not have other options. They might not have the financial resources to engage paid lawyers and they're not eligible for legal aid.
So we did a huge amount of work that was very stressful, often not really getting paid for it because we were driven by the same purposes as our clients. And that is the welfare of animals. And animal law is also tricky because clients. Often come to you because they care about animals, but it not because the legal matter directly affects them.
So it's not like they're getting sued. It's that there's some animal that's in distress and they want help with it, but it's, it might not even be their animal. Um, so often the clients are kind of reluctant to pay for, for that legal service. And 'cause it's in the, it, it's can be considered in the charitable space.
Uh, there, there can be an expectation that. You're gonna do it for free. The lawyers are gonna work for free or at a significantly reduced rate and that, but what that results in is just, yeah, burnout for at least some of the lawyers, um, involved. And I think the other side to it, for me at least, is that a lot of the, the footage and the photos and the descriptions of the animals suffering.
Is very traumatic for me. It really upsets me and it, it's hard to, to just be exposed to that all the time because it's so, so horrific. So you kind of have got stresses and, and from all, all over the place. Not only just burnout from working a lot, but also then probably vicarious trauma from seeing these animals suffering or, or reading about these animals suffering.
And vicarious trauma is very real. With everything that you've just talked about, if you could go back to Mike who's about to embark on that purpose driven work, and think about the advice that you'd give yourself or what you would absolutely do differently, or your key lesson, I'll let you frame it as you wish.
What would it, what would you say to the mic then about how we should reach it? It's a re it's a really good question. I think hindsight's always 2020 or, or at least it's pretty good. I think what I would say to my young, a younger version of myself is probably try and figure out what your strengths are and what your interests are.
Because I think it's taken me a, a long time and I'm still learning, but I'm a lot. More aware of what I'm good at and also what I'm really not good at, and what I'm really interested in and what I'm really not interested in. And I think I would, I, I think it's really worth, at least for me, I, I think it would've been really useful for me to really sit down and think in depth about those issues.
What are you good at? What are you not good at? What are you really interested in? What are you not? And also. What is that intersection between those things of, you know, what you're interested in and what you're good at, where someone will actually pay you for it. And once you can find that intersection, pursue those, pursue whatever that might be, and, and that, you know, probably in hindsight, that would've ended up with me not being a lawyer.
I think that there's other things that I'm much better suited to. It is, being a lawyer has actually really helped me in my, in my personal life. It's also been a detriment, um, especially socially because I often discuss social topics as, as if I'm a lawyer, which is no one unfortunately, that's on me. But it's really helped me with some areas of my life that I just didn't know that, you know, I, I was good at certain things and has also really illustrated what I'm not good at.
So it's, I think, you know, that's. What I would probably would've said to my younger self is really think deeply about those, those things. But of course that was a long time ago. And that's all with the benefit of hindsight. Yes. And of course hindsight is a wonderful thing. I think it's useful though to reflect on those lessons too.
'cause as you go forward and applying them and thinking, oh, well what will I do differently now? But what I hear you say in terms of, you know, you talked about. That intersection between what you're good at, what you can get paid for. Also, I heard there stuff around like really who you are. Yeah. Like what?
What are your character? What are your strengths, character, strengths? What's what? Values and important, and it's like it will come And your passions, like your interests. Yeah. Yeah. So all of that, you know, when it's no surprise that you say that. And everything that Carla and I have been learning through our coaching psychology and positive psychology.
Absolutely backs up this idea that it is so important to have a clear sense of, uh, well, or at least explore. And, you know, you can't have that when you're a young, you know, if you're just outta uni you might not necessarily have that, but it's at least Yeah, that's right. Engaging in the exploration. So you're asking the questions Yeah.
About what are your values? What, what is most important for you, what are your, your character kind of strengths, and then have a growth mindset and kind of be curious about that. So that's what I would add to that in terms of what I'm hearing and, um, encourage people to kind of have that lens. Yeah. But going back to your story, you know, you did talk about.
How all the different sports are so integral to who you are. The role, you know, you, you've got your different roles at Lawyerbankto, there's also your yoga. To hear a little bit about that, what would you like to share with the audience? Well, I. Run a, a, a micro business called Mike's Yoga Shed, where at the moment I'm just teaching one yoga class a week.
It's available, uh, in person and on livestream. If anyone wants to, wants to come along, just google mike's yoga shed.com au. Uh, and you can sign up. And, uh, yeah. I've been practicing yoga since 2009 and I initially started doing it because it, it helps me so much with all the sport that I play. So it, you know, stretching helps.
Well, it helps me at least with recovering more quickly from when I've done, you know, a lot of exercise on my, my legs are a sore. Stretching actually helps my recovery and it, it really helps your agility and your mobility in your body. There's also a lot of strength work that you can do in yoga. And then of course the, the meditation.
Is, um, is actually there, there's a lot of, uh, empirical evidence that, that supports the benefits of yo of meditation done the right way, and that it can be used in a whole range of different ways, both in terms of visualization and also in terms of mindfulness, which can help some people with stress reduction.
So yoga, it's, um, it's just something that, that's been a kind of quite a big part of my life. For about 16 years. Not that I'm at all kind of an expert in it at all or anything like that, but it's more just something that I, I find really helps me physically and mentally. And actually as, as I get older, I wanna do more and more of it as well as other things like Pilates and strength training and, um, cardio training, which, um, I already do, uh, a fair bit of.
But I, as I get older, I wanna do more and more of that stuff because it actually is becoming more and more important. Because when I was younger, my body just recovered a lot quicker than it does now. But I wanna be playing soccer until I'm in my seventies, hopefully, maybe even longer. Um, so I've gotta work harder.
I've gotta keep my body in better shape, and as I get older, I've just got a lot more responsibility. So I need to do more meditation. So yeah, I actually want to make that a bigger part of my life as, as I get older. Mm. So it's one thing to be practicing yoga, right? And to have that as a big part of your life and to be turning up to classes and, and doing it.
And it's another thing to jump the other side of the fence and say, okay, I am gonna train to be a teacher to then not only that, but then practice and then set up a little micro enterprise. So what, how do you end up jumping that? That kind of barrier of all the change, like going, going from practitioner to teacher and then to a business too.
My, it was actually my, my mom's, um, suggestion back in about 2009 when I started practicing it. 'cause yoga's kind of. Been something that I was like, oh, I don't, it's not something that, you know, super stimulates me, uh, compared to playing soccer or going snowboarding or something like that. But it's just good for, for me.
And so I kind of always knew it was good for me. So, but it was hard for me to motivate myself to go and mum said, oh, you should teach it. And so in 2010, I became a, a Les Mills Body Balance Instructor. And Body Balance is awesome because it's, it's, um, Tai Chi yoga. Pilates and meditation, but it's choreographed, so you kind of have to do exactly what the Les Mills program says.
But it's a really good class. So I taught that for two years while I was at uni and it was great. And so I got paid to to do that. Plus I got a free gym, gym membership, which was really handy for uni student with very little money. And then I just kind of can, and then I taught just free yoga classes for for many years to office workers in Canberra and just raise money instead of getting paid for the classes.
And, and raised about four and half thousand dollars. Over, over about four and a half years. I did my yoga teacher training in India, uh, at a, in a place called Rakesh. And that was really cool. It was actually, um, such a cool month over there in India. And then I was teaching for a couple of years at a, at a, at a yoga studio in Canberra.
I'm just kind of also really interested in business. Uh, and yeah, I just wanted to start my own yoga business, and I started that last year. Well, I actually kind of started it in, uh, a version of it in 2019, but I didn't really pursue it, and then I, I restarted it essentially last year and I've done it a bit, a bit more properly, I suppose, and I plan to, to do it, to kind of expand it and do more advertising and to grow it a little bit more.
So what does it give you that your other work doesn't in terms of the business side? Well, I like being my own boss in, in that space, and I like the fact, uh, I think for me, I work quite well when the buck stops with me in that in my own business, if I stuff up that's on me and it can ruin my entire business, there's no one else involved in that.
All of the responsibilities on me, and that seems to bring out the best in me. That's just what I've kind of noticed. So I tend to work quite well on my own when the only, when the consequences, it don't, it doesn't affect anyone else if, if I stuck up it, it just affects me and, and there's no safety net there.
So that I think brings out some of the best in me. And whereas I find with. Working with other people. There's, especially, as you know, with lawyering, there's a often a lot of layers that your work needs to go through, which is really important. And often things get changed along the way because, you know, everyone's got kind of a different way of looking at the world and that that collaborative process is really important for lawyering.
And, but you've also got a huge safety net there. So if you, if you miss a something. Someone else will in general pick it up and vice versa. If someone else misses something, then you can often pick that up with running your own business. If you step up and, and you make a big mistake, then there's no, there's no one there to save you, and so you've really gotta step up to the plate.
Okay. So the sense of challenge there too, and responsibility actually bringing a different kind of experience. I'm interested because. I'm hearing a whole lot of different pursuits, which are all have something that they bring new. And it seems like each domain has its role in terms of how it fits in the whole picture of your life, the role that it plays.
I mean, yoga it seems for, just to take one, is the example you were just talking about the, the actually physical benefits of you. Practicing the mental benefits in terms of the way that it will then have ripple effects in other domains because of your presence, your wellbeing, your ability to notice things, deal with stress.
And I imagine that energy spent in things like soccer perhaps might be similar in terms of burning the energy, connecting with other people. Training. I'm curious like, like. There's still a lot of competing demands there. Am I right? And sometimes that must seem like a lot. So how do, do you find that those things are giving you enough energy that that's not a problem much Or, uh, like how do you deal with it when it's like, oh, I've got just all of these things that I'm just wanna, I don't know, watch the tv?
Yeah. Well, I, I think. What I was saying before was that you, you, um,
think thinking about who you are and what your strengths are and, and that everyone is, is really different. So for me, playing soccer, going to martial arts training, playing tennis, teaching yoga, that all actually, that all of those things really energizes me. So I'm actually more effective in my lawyering job.
And as a partner and as a a dog dad, et cetera, when I'm doing all of those other things because they spike my dopamine and you know, I'm more pleasant to be around when I'm doing those things and when I'm not doing them, I'd have more time in the day, but I'd be less efficient. And I'd be more miserable.
And so for me it's just, just my personality, those things. They're not a burden. They're not, it's not like, oh, it's hard to fit them all in. It's more like when I fit them in, I, I'm really invigorated and I can actually give more to the, the other parts of my life. And it probably just means I watch a bit less TV and I'm, it's something I'm actually trying to do is get away from my phone and, and screens, um, more and just kind of get out and actually, you know, into the outdoors more and sew.
So I'm not sure if that answers your question, but Yeah. No, and I was really hoping that that's the answer that you'd give because it goes again to that intrinsic motivation that those things they do energize you. Like I'm, I'm really feeling that at the moment because I'm busier than I've been in a long time between the lawyering, the coaching.
All the things that come with really getting a new business off the ground, doing things like this podcast going, I've been trying to do my weight training a lot, um, yoga as well, and I was, oh, uni. I'm doing uni. Yes. Yeah. But the funny thing is, is that I, I'm getting, I get tired absolutely, but I feel on the other hand, more energized.
I've ever been and because I think it's exactly what you were just talking about in terms of it took me a long time to get here in terms of understanding the different bits of my life that I wanted and experimenting. Like I think you have to experiment and play and try things and you know, I don't know whether this balance will stay or how long that, you know, things will be the way that they are, but certainly.
It's giving me a little, a lot of energy. The challenges are still there. For example, I just took a few days off from the lawyering so that I was able to give more attention to other domains, but I'm finding that it just means being more deliberate about that. So it's actually having this thinking in the strategic thinking about what do I need right now and how can I organize things at the best time at the moment?
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Interesting. So, okay, so. Is there anything that you'd add to this picture? Because you know, from, from my perspective in this, I'm really what's come through is the diversity of your experience and interests and what keeps you engaged. Is there anything that you'd like to kind of add to the picture in terms of what helps you thrive or flourish or if we, you know, we covered the ground there.
I think probably the only thing I would add would be to suggest people to really think about the things that they enjoy doing and do more of those things. And it sounds very simple, but I was, I was listening to a podcast done yesterday from a podcast addict. One of the ones I was listening to is on neuroscience, and they were talking about dopamine and, and how there's some things that you could do in life that increase dopamine in a healthy way and sometimes, and some things that increase it in a, in an unhealthy way.
And that if you can do it in a healthy way, that can actually improve your mood and it can actually have a bit of a lasting effect. So not, not indefinitely, but. You, you can feel elevated for a bit of a, a length of time, um, and you might need to keep redoing that, but that does, at least in that individual moment, increase the quality of your life.
So some things, so, you know, they, they were talking about a range of different things. I'll give an example of, um, cold water immersion therapy. Now, I don't, I've tried that. I kind of do it from time to time, but it's not something that that's really interests me. Um, I think I get enough. Dopamine from all the different sports.
But that was an example that they were saying that's can be actually quite a good thing for some people. Whereas there are other things like doing, um, amphetamines for example, that really spikes your dopamine. But then when your dopamine goes back down to it doesn't go back down to baseline, it goes down back down below baseline.
So then you need more of it. And that's how you can get stuck in a drug addiction. And that's very unhealthy. But I think thinking about for, for some people that. Where they do get an increased elevation of positive feelings, thinking about what things actually do, elevate your feelings. So socializing the, the podcast was talking about socializing for some people, those social interactions are really, really important.
So if you're someone that, um, doesn't enjoy playing sport, doesn't wanna do cold water, emotion therapy, um. You enjoy socializing, then do more socializing because it's actually can be actually very good for you. So I think I would just encourage people to really think about maybe just doing a bit more if people are feeling like they're in a bit of a rut, just thinking about the things that they really enjoy that are hopefully healthy and just do more of them.
And sometimes you need to motivate yourself to actually go out and do it. Like sometimes you, you kind of like you're stuck on the couch and you're like, oh. Do I really want to go out and, and have coffee. I kind of just wanna watch Netflix. But if you make the effort to go out and have that coffee, that can actually be a really positive thing.
So I'm not sure if that's very helpful, but I think, um, that's probably one thing I would add. No, thank you. My, it is an absolutely, again, fits with what I'm aware of in terms of from the positive psych science, you know, just to give you an example that might be helpful as a counter plate. One of the main theories in positive psychology comes from a guy called Martin Salman and he was pretty much the founder of Positive Psychologies, I think he's at the University of Pennsylvania.
And he, um, put out what is essentially called the PERMA Theory. And that initially had a number of different elements as this idea that for sources of wellbeing, there's effectively five main ones, which is positive relate emotions. Engagement and flow. So you know, that's when you're really, when you are engaged on the soccer field or in yoga or in yoga and you're not aware of the rest of the world and you get in the zone, that's what they're talking about there.
Positive relationships that goes to the socializing that you just were talking about. Meaning, meaning and purpose and achievement was the fifth one. And now often a lot of other wellbeing scholars will add on health. In terms of physical and mental health is seen as a little bit separate in terms of a source of wellbeing.
But all of that goes and his idea was is that everybody will have slightly different pre will have different preferences. You might rely on one or more of those. So from what we've talked about, I'm hearing a lot of them comes through. For you, Mike, I'm hearing the meaning and the purpose in the different parts.
You know, the animal law comes out into, it came out in the yoga a a little bit too. Certainly health, yeah, yeah. As you call it, mental health. Yep. Yeah. The, the, the socializing bit that you've just talked about, um, I'm guessing the engagement and Flo coming out in those Oh, yeah. When I'm playing soccer for two hours, I don't know what is going on in the world other than I'm just trying to score a goal.
And it's amazing. It's, um, yeah, it's really cool. Actually, I'll give you another quick example of flow. I, I used to do a lot of freestyle snowboarding, uh, which is where you kind of hit big jumps and, uh, rails, et cetera. And at Falls Creek in Victoria, there's, they've got a terrain park with big jumps. I have a sound system there going down the, the chair lifts and the music's quite loud.
And I, I used, I remember very vividly, um, dropping into those jumps and as soon as you started to get, you know, probably 20, 30 meters away from the jump, you're going quite fast and you, the sound just evaporated and you couldn't hear any music. Then you'd go off the jump and because if you get it wrong, you, you're gonna end up in hospital or you can, and then you go off, do your trick land, hopefully land, and then you stand up and then it was like someone just turned the volume back on and then it was, and never have.
I felt more in the zone than that. And it was just amazing because all of your senses are, are focused on trying to do this trick and, and learn this trick. You can't even hear the music blasting. That's how kind of in the zone you are and. I, I love getting in that, that flow sport, you know, like, yeah.
Soccer, for example, gives me that at the moment. Wow, okay. That is like the most powerful, oh, example. I think I'd be better, quite terrifying if you, if you're not good, but Sounds even aware of any of that in the moment. You're, although you're hyper aware of exactly where you need to put your body, I'm assuming.
Yeah, ideally. And you bet you get the very last element of perma, which is the achievement when you've landed on your feet. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. I can't describe the feeling when you, um, yeah. Like the snowboarding example, when you hit a massive jump, do a really hard trick, and you land and it's euphoric. Yeah.
Amazing feeling of achievement because it's something that you, you've trained for a long period of time to try and do and, and even scoring a goal in soccer, it's like, it's can sometimes be very hard to do that. So when you score. You're like, wow, I've, you know, put in a lot of time with my fitness and, you know, my skills and, um, that's the result.
And it feels good. Wow. So I've got one final question just to round out then, which is, you know, that, that kind of, um, in terms of what made you flourish and thrive and there was the focus on that advice around what you're interested in and the passion and, and. How you found that. But I'm curious maybe for a final word to, you know, if, if there's a lawyer listening here who's perhaps feeling stuck, and it might not be, you know, they might be fine in the rest of their life, might just be the career paths causing the problems.
And they might feel, you know, they might be working too long hours, or perhaps they're not, but they're just needing a new challenge or, you know, a bit overworked or burnt out, or even just bored. What might you say to that? Who's, who's looking something different maybe? Yeah, so I think, I think, um, I'd say a few things.
One is that one of the real beauties I think of pursuing a career in law is that it is actually so diverse. You, you could be a criminal lawyer going to, to trials and, and that would be a, a completely different experience to. A civil litigation lawyer who's challenging a government department that would be completely different to doing advice work for a private client where you are not going to court, you're trying to keep your client out of court, and there's so many areas of law that you can specialize in, and there's so many different jobs that you can do as a lawyer.
So it seems to me that because there is so much that you can do if you're not enjoying what you're doing. And you can't really see that, that things are gonna gonna change. Look around and see what else you can do using your legal skills. And you might find that there's actually a lot of other jobs that you can do that you actually might enjoy.
And it's interesting being doing a lot of commercial ball work because commercial law in general, it doesn't really change to, you know, with your different clients. You know, a contract is a contract regardless of who your client is, but you, your clients. And the types of contracts you do that you are advising on, they certainly do change.
And so it may be that you, you want to keep doing the area of law, but you just want different clients because you want a different subject matter. Um, so if you're interested in the environment, you know, you could maybe look at one of the departments of environment, state or commonwealth, uh, environment departments or work for a, an environmental not-for-profit.
So that might be, I'd say, think about. Either if you're not interested in the area of law that you are working in, maybe look at bit at something else that you might be interested in. You might be interested in family law or criminal law or commercial law. Who knows? But think about different areas of law and then also think about not just those areas of law, but the actual industry that you want to assist in.
So it may be that you, you don't actually care about making lots of money, and so working for a not-for-profit. Doing something that you are really interested in will mean that yeah, you get paid a lot less, but you might be a lot more fulfilled because you care a lot about the environment or animals or a poverty alleviation or whatever it might be.
Um, so I think there's a lot of options there. Lawyering, it can be a profession where you worked very hard, but it doesn't always have to be. I mean, the law firm that I work for, I mean I certainly work hard, but as in I don't work excessive hours. Lawyerbank. We are contracted to work seven and a half hours for each client.
We're not contracted to work more than that. And that does mean that I don't, I don't have to do 70 hour weeks where I might, I might have to do that working for someone else. Uh, and I'm not interested in, in doing that because I've got my other interests that I want to pursue. So if it's the number of hours you, you're working, then you can consider different working options.
It might be working for a firm like LO Bank where. You are second conduit or you, you go on contract and your contract says you work seven and a half hours a day. Um, so there's lots of different options there. You could even, I mean, if you're not enjoying the law at all and enjoying being a lawyer, then consider it a different career.
If you're really not enjoying it, do something else. Life's too short. I think some of the issues that face lawyers are not unique to the legal profession in that there is a lot of professions where you're gonna get burnt out. Uh, you could get burnt out if you kind of accept being asked to work. Seven hours a week or whatever it might be.
So it's, they're not necessarily unique to being a lawyer, but lawyers do commonly work in quite a stressful environment because being a lawyer, well, I find it pretty hard and you're asked to advise on things that are very complicated and they don't necessarily have a clear answer. And you've got deadlines to meet and you've gotta give an answer off.
And, um, and so, um, and, and people rely on you to make, make these, uh, often big decisions. So it can be challenging. But I think there's a lot of options to explore. That is such a beautiful spot to finish, I think. Mike, thank you for that. I really appreciate that. There's a lot in there for people to think over, so I'll make sure that I put in the show notes your reference to Mike's Yoga Shed.
Thank you. So people can find you there. And I just wanna say thank you. Really appreciate you giving up your time to have this chat. So thank you. Thanks so much for having me, Kathleen, and look forward to catching up with you again soon. Cheers. Thank you. Thanks, Kathleen
[00:45:48] Kathleen: Thank you so much for listening to this episode of the thriving lawyer with Kathleen Brenner and Carla Ferraz, if you like it, please share it with your lawyer friends and colleagues, and tag us on Instagram at @thriving lawyer or on LinkedIn via the links in the show notes. And if you liked what you heard, please drop a review in apple podcasts.
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