You are listening to The Thriving Lawyer With Kathleen Brenner and Carla Ferraz. I'm Kathleen, a highly experienced lawyer and an International Coaching Federation accredited coach.
[00:00:24] Carla: And I am Carla. Like Kathleen, I am an ICF certified coach and I have worked with top leaders and professionals, many of them lawyers, at some of the world's biggest organizations.
My focus is on using evidence based approaches to help my clients thrive at work and in the rest of their lives. Together,
[00:00:46] Kathleen: we bring you the Thriving Lawyer podcast, a podcast filled with ideas and inspiration, as well as practical tips to help you thrive as a lawyer and in the rest of your
life. Let's get into it.
[00:01:02] Speaker 8: Welcome to the Thriving Lawyer Podcast. I'm here today with my partner, Carla Ferraz in all things, the Thriving Lawyer. And of course, and today I'm really excited to be joined by a guest, Ruth Beran, whose career journey has been anything but ordinary and conventional.
An award-winning journalist, Ruth now helps other people tell their own career stories through her coaching business career storytelling, Ruth has over 10 years experience in career coaching, including as the National Careers Advisor for the College of Law and as an associate in the career service at UNSW Law.
In a previous life, Ruth worked as a science radio presenter for Radio New Zealand, and as a television researcher at the ABC. Legally qualified Ruth is a professional member of the Career Development Association of Australia. She's currently researching a concept she calls happendipity, the mix between happenstance and serendipity that forms part of everyone's career, but particularly those people who change careers.
So welcome, Ruth. Thank you for joining us. Lovely to join you and Carla.
[00:02:13] Speaker 10: Yeah, excellent. Thank you for being here. So Ruth, like you have such an interesting careers, like you know, many different from law into diverse field. So would you like to just share a little bit about your story?
[00:02:28] Speaker 11: Well, sure. I am actually a career storyteller, so I love talking about careers and stories.
I started off, um, as was mentioned by Kathleen. I started off actually working in government as a lawyer and then moved into working as a science journalist. So I've got about 20 years experience working with audio, online, print, and television stories. And what I like doing is helping other people to tell their own stories to achieve their career goals.
But when I was in high school, I always wanted to be an environmental lawyer. Before I'd even graduated from university, I was working at, the New South Wales EPA in their legal department. But what I discovered was that law just wasn't creative enough for me. So I actually ran away with the circus.
The Shell Questacon science Circus and spent a year traveling Australia presenting science shows to school children. And the skills that I got from that while dressed as a superhero who couldn't fly, that allowed me to communicate really complex information to a wide variety of audiences. And I started creating science and history documentaries for broadcasters like the ABC and Radio New Zealand.
And what I discovered was that everybody has a story. So I combined my sort of skillset and began doing things like teaching at TAFE. I taught journalism and social media and career subjects, and I worked, um, in the career service at the College of law at UNSW Law, at the AGSM, at UNSW Business School.
And I, uh, worked in executive search, so I helped. Placed people in higher education. And I also became a volunteer career coach, so I worked for Dress for Success in Sydney and I was also a career consultant for Outplacement Australia and Blue Sky Career Consulting. And what I found is that most people struggle to tell their own unique, uh, career story.
So I founded my business, Career Storytelling and that helps people articulate their individual value proposition or their career story. And it helps people particularly answer that question to tell me about yourself, which I think is really the question you just asked me, Carla. So you just asked me to tell you about me.
So, and that's, that's what I've done. That's really what I do as a career storyteller.
[00:04:51] Speaker 10: Beautiful. And you did beautifully, right? Like yeah. Thank you.
It sounded like you've, taken some really bold turns in your career, right?
And I'm wondering here, what, um, what role has risk played in those transitions? Like, how do you know when the risk is worth taking?
[00:05:11] Speaker 11: It's a really good question. When I've made moves in my career, it's often also involved me moving cities. For example, when I took up the role at ABC TV to work at Catalyst, I moved from Melbourne to Sydney, and I dunno how I did that in that I didn't have an actual signed contract and I packed up my house and I got a phone call from the executive producer about two days before I was meant to leave. Just going, I'm just confirming that you are coming to Sydney. And I'm like, well, I'm packing up my whole house based on our conversation.
So yes, I am coming. I also moved from, um, from Sydney to Wellington, when I took up my role at Radio New Zealand, that was only meant to be a nine month job, but I stayed there for six years and for me, if I get excited about an opportunity and I feel that it's going to be a learning experience and also perhaps help my career, I don't mind so much in terms of risk.
You know, whether my salary goes backwards a little bit, but for the most people that I talk to, I do suggest making little experiments before you make a big move so that you're actually testing that risk. So for me, that was, before I moved from Sydney to Wellington to take the radio job, I actually volunteered at a radio station here in Sydney to make sure that the risk was something that, that I wanted to take on. There's, um, there's also, I guess that idea that, you know, it might be the risk might be worth taking if the potential rewards things like skill development or like goal alignment or increased fulfill. Outweigh the negatives of what you are deciding to do.
I think that's probably a good way to look at it. And I also like that idea that, uh, a career journey is not necessarily linear. That you're not necessarily going up the career ladder. Sometimes it's more like a jungle gym. And you've kind of got to move sideways. I also have a very low tolerance for boredom.
So if I know that a job is gonna be, something that I learn in, I think I mentioned that before, but if I know that I'm excited about it, I'm often prepared to take that risk if it aligns with my
[00:07:34] Speaker 8: values
That I was just about to add in and ask a question around that issue of values. Because one of the things that we see Ruth in the work with the thriving lawyer, and in fact what we're designed to really address is that too many lawyers that I see right will perhaps have inherited a story, a story about what their career should look like. That might be a very linear one with a whole set of expectations and ideas about what it even means to be a successful lawyer right now.
I'm interested in everything that you just said. Now, you ultimately chose to leave the law, but of course for many people it might be not that dramatic. It might be, but it could also be like taking little experiments, really, particularly in the early years, clarifying values. What's important to you to kind of create your own idea about
what is the story that you essentially like wanna create? So I know I've gone on a little bit there, but I'm interested in with all of that kind of in mind and the fact that lawyers are probably trained in our jobs to be risk averse, right? In fact, you'd want your lawyer to notice and highlight those risks.
What do you think that lawyers can learn from the experience that you've had? Or what's the message that you think, you know, you could give them about their pathways? Particularly if they're like, I just feel stuck, right? I don't know. I don't know.
[00:09:09] Speaker 11: Well look, it's interesting that you've talked about that idea almost about success.
Yeah. What does success mean for you? And as you say, a lot of people believe that success just means climbing higher and higher, let's say, in a law firm and potentially becoming partner. Like that's the the trajectory. An interesting exercise to do, particularly if at that point the person maybe isn't feeling so successful in their career, is to actually ask some people that know them well.
To say to them, first off, maybe as you've said, the value piece, like, you know, where do you think my values lie? But also that question of success. And I think it's interesting when you do that because often I think people feel that they're not being successful when other people around them actually find them to be doing really well.
I guess the other question that I have for people that are questioning, um, how they're gonna progress in their career and that idea of a linear career. I often tell people to stalk other people on LinkedIn. Particularly people that they, um, admire, but also people that they don't know at all and just look at their career trajectories as well.
Um, because yes, there is that traditional sort of linear career trajectory that a lawyer will make, but there's also some very interesting side paths as well. And one of those is this idea that you can actually transition relatively easily, uh, once you've done it once or twice between private practice and government.
So some people feel like they have to stay in private practice, but there's actually an opportunity for people to use their skills in government. And some of the most successful career trajectories I've seen, particularly more junior lawyers is when they transition between the two. And that's my idea of an experiment.
You're not leaving the law. You are just trying to see if you can try a different pathway, a different sort of, environment and see if that helps you with things like work-life balance, for example.
[00:11:10] Speaker 8: Yeah. Thank you. And can, I'll just highlight there a little shout out for government lawyers too. You know, I spent most of my career as a government lawyer directly in the Commonwealth and then a few years in state government, mostly in the Commonwealth.
And, you know, I left three years ago for a new model law firm. Where I'm contracted back. And so that in itself, like I remember when I was ready because there was a whole lot of other things in my own life that I wanted to pursue, like with my coaching, developing the thriving lawyer with Carla, and it was becoming increasingly clear that I needed the flexibility.
I mean, my thinking around that risk probably changed with the pandemic too. Before the pandemic. I probably would never have made the jump to be honest, because having that very sec secure career path with a very clear like line of like where it could go as a public sector lawyer, there was really good work that had a public purpose.
Like I think the, the pandemic made me really rethink boundaries, what was possible and be willing to take a risk. And as that time kind of progressed, the risk seemed smaller, right? I'd catastrophized before that it was some major thing, oh, I could lose my career. You know, all of those worst kind of fears where you go down that ladder of inference.
And yet for me, ultimately, there's been so many opportunities that have come out of that. But again, it was that it willing to kind of back yourself too and go, well, if if worse came to worse, I could always go back.
[00:12:44] Speaker 11: Yeah. I was just about to say, I also tie this into this concept that I'm looking into of ha Dippity, and that really is a mindset as well, that idea of linking the, the idea of serendipity and happenstance.
To be able to take risks, you actually need to have a bit of a change of mindset, uh, which is just what you described there as well. So I think that openness to opportunity is a big factor in people who've made successful career changes.
[00:13:13] Speaker 8: Mm-hmm. That's probably a beautiful point to invite you to tell us a little bit more about this idea of happendipity
[00:13:20] Speaker 11: yeah, look, it's something that I've been researching in the last little while. I've been interviewing people that have successfully made career changes because, um, hap Dippity, it's a word that I coined, and it's that combination of happenstance, which is like chance or accidents and serendipity, which is like unexpected discoveries.
But it describes that idea of people being able to harness chance or luck and using that to their advantage.
And it's something that I think people that make career changes, successful career managers do quite well. And before you, you look at me and say, actually, that doesn't sound like it's scientifically proven or evidence-based.
Um, there is actually research done by a number of academics, but the most famous is Richard Wiseman, and he's actually written a book called The Luck Factor, and he's a psychologist and he talks about that mindset that you need to have to be a lucky person. Um, and some of the things I can go into if you want to, but some of those things feed into Hap Dippity.
But this idea that it, this concept of what, um, happens in our career and chance events. They're not purely random. It starts with that idea of how you are looking at the world, your intentions, the goals that you are, that you're putting out there. It's about being open, open to, and alert to chance encounters, and knowing when they come along that you might just have to grab them quickly.
Also positive outcomes. It's often fortunate that we look at, you know, events when in, in hindsight and see if that hadn't happened, I wouldn't have been able to do this. So it's kind of like a, a beneficial discovery that we've made. There is actually some career theory backing it as well. There's a career theory by Crum.
Called planned happenstance. And it's this idea that you can plan your career as much as you want. You can plan that successful linear career. But it's often the chance events that happen that other ones that are, that they're the ones that change us. They're the ones that we have to grab and make a difference in our career too.
And I'd say, um, that some of the people that I've interviewed have talked about this in different ways. But I think realistically it's about having a goal. It's making yourself sensitive to those opportunities so that you can achieve them. And then when they happen or they, they pop up, you're more likely to recognize and act on them.
Um, so it's not just me creating some new concept. There is actually some theory and some, um, science behind it. And I, I've loved being able to talk to people who have showed, shared with me how that has shaped their career as well.
[00:16:09] Speaker 10: I hear a lot of the complexity, you know, the way that, that we are complex human beings, right?
And we live in a complex world. As much as we want to plan, there is always things emerging, right? And if we are open to see what is emerging, like we are then able to choose what path, where there's many roles that lead to Rome, right? Kathleen and I was just having these conversation before. There's many things that we can do here, but we, you know, which ones are we choosing?
Um, and my question is you talked about mindset and having this ability to be open. We hear a lot of people being on autopilot, like just responding to what is here and, and not even being able to notice some of those things and the, and the back end of it feeling unfulfilled as well. What is the first step?
How do we get into like moving from that autopilot into a more open mindset, I suppose, is the question.
[00:17:05] Speaker 11: Yeah, it's a really, it's a really good question and I'll, I'll jump back into some of Richard Wiseman's work on Luck, which I think, um, answers some of those questions and he's got a number of principles, but one is that people create, notice and act upon the chance opportunities in their lives.
And one of those, one of those things that they're open to new experiences. So you know how we were talking about experimenting and trialing little things to see if that works. But often it's just saying yes, that can actually perhaps be the first part of a changing mindset. 'cause often when we are limited, someone will say, oh, would you like to do this?
And you're like, no, I can't. I'm too busy. But often we aren't that busy to try something just new, something little or changing it slightly so it fits into our lives a little bit better. Um, so I think that's one of the first things that I'd say. Another thing that to think about too is that, I mean, sometimes bad luck happens as well.
It's not often. It's sometimes it's good, but sometimes it can be bad. And I think that the right mindset also involves some form of resilience. This ability to expect good luck to happen, but if it doesn't, to not take it too much to heart. So if you apply for that promotion and you don't get it, um, don't take it so that that's a reflection of you necessarily.
Take it more as well this is an opportunity for me to improve myself, so next time it comes along, I can be promoted into that position, for example. So to take some constructive outcomes from it, and I guess it's not, it's even further than that. It's almost changing bad luck into good fortune. So as I said, they lucky people don't dwell on their ill fortune.
Lucky people often see the positive side of good and bad luck as well. So that my concept of happendipity, I think, comes in closely with this idea of mindset and how lucky people view them their lives. Mm. Yeah.
[00:19:15] Speaker 8: And would it be right to think then, you know, you talked about values really early on in our discussion today, because I could also see like the, a flip risk is that things come at us all the time.
Right? Good, bad, otherwise challenging opportunities. Sometimes I think like, and lawyers are prone to this, I, I think, which is if they've got those older ideas or inherited ideas about what it is that they should take their lens, like the antenna might be all about particular opportunities or the wrong ones that actually don't fit with their values or what's important to them.
So what I'm hearing perhaps with this happendipity concept is that it's actually about if you've, if you can have that clarity around what's important to you, or at least explore and experiment with that you might increase your ability to notice the right kind of ones rather than say yes to the wrong things.
Am I hearing that right?
[00:20:19] Speaker 11: Yeah, I'd agree with that. And um, I, I think we've touched on this as well. It's, it's being open and noticing those chance events as well. It's, being able also, I think to, um. I, I, I, and again, I guess coming back to this idea of a career story too, it's making sure that you're not stuck in how you view yourself.
That your career story is still ongoing, you know, there's still a future to it. So if you are fixated on a particular end or a particular way that your career story is gonna go, you're gonna be more limited to be able to view the other opportunities that might be coming along. So I, do believe the two, linked career story are linked and yes, values are also part of that.
I think sometimes as we progress in our careers we forget to revisit what it is that that's the meaning behind the work that we are doing. Sometimes we kind of lose track or lose sight of that. So I think sometimes it's good to revisit that and ask yourself, why am I working? What does work mean to me?
You know, what do I want to get out of the next 15, 20 years of my working life? Um, and sometimes when people do that, they realize that actually. Yeah, it's better off saying to some, yes, to some opportunities and actually turning down others. Yeah. I think that hopefully has answered your question, but I. I was just gonna say too, I think that often, um, when the people that are able to tap into happendipity, um, they often have more of a relaxed attitude towards life as well.
And that's also a, a, um, feature of sort of lucky people as well. They don't, they're not too structured. They kind of have a more relaxed idea of how their life can go.
[00:22:19] Speaker 8: Yeah, I can relate to that. I remember years and years ago being placed with a mentor who was a, a lovely woman and I learned a lot from her.
But one of the things that she got us to do was like a 10 year or a five or a 10 year kind of plan, and I found that very, um. Very difficult and it almost turned me off coaching altogether, right? Because I never thought that way. Like, yes, I have big goals that are way out in the front, but they're so fuzzy and flexible.
It's more about the kind of person I wanna be or the values. It wasn't about things that are outta my control, that are externalities, like I will have X job by y time. Uh, I just don't think that that kind of thinking is helpful. I'm
[00:23:02] Speaker 11: just gonna jump in, Kathleen. Yeah. I know I keep jumping over the top of you, but I do actually have a task that I give to clients.
Yep. Where I get them to look back. For 10 years and not just look at their career, but actually look at all the elements of their lives. So family, study friends, things like finances, like, you know, big events, like maybe getting a mortgage on a house or something similar, travel. There's a whole range of things you can put into that sort of category.
And then sort of doing the highs and lows of that. And often what people, they, they find sometimes quite unusual things. I, I had a client who said to me, I actually realized the happy times or the, the times when I was satisfied in my career was when I had a good manager, not the same manager, just a good manager was the time that I was satisfied.
But then I do get people to look forward five or 10 years time, not prescriptively, because as I said. You know, you can set those goals. You might not actually achieve them. It's good to have goals though. Yes. It's good to have them and sometimes it's good to place them as part of your life. You know, if I want to buy that house in the future, how am I gonna be able to achieve that, for example?
[00:24:10] Speaker 8: Yeah, absolutely. And I wasn't suggesting not to have, I think where I was getting at was that sometimes , the prescriptive nature of them. Yes. Or setting them so that the achievement or not is like. Uh, dependent on some external factor, like whether somebody gives you the job, you have no control over, that you've got control over the happendipity of the seeking the opport, like noticing the opportunities, for example.
Um, but yeah, I think, um, certainly like at the Thriving lawyer, a lot of what we talk about is like those high level fuzzy goals that you can kind of see they're in the distance, but. You can't put them in detailed color yet because they're sort of out there, . But kind of coming back, there's something that I really wanted to pick up because you talked a lot about noticing and the time, and there was the thinking.
It seems to me that a lot of that is around reflection generally. Um, and I'm curious if you could expand on that connection perhaps between this idea of ha dippity and reflection. A little bit more.
[00:25:15] Speaker 11: Yeah, so I look, when we think about self-reflection, we think about being able to, you know, evaluate or see our own sort of cognitive and emotional and behavioral processes.
And I guess in a way, happendipity is that type of thinking. I think that self-reflection would allow someone to be more intentional and in that way, hopefully they'd be more open to chance events.
Um, I think I, well, I know, I'm not even sure if, I think I, I, I think I know that when people understand themselves.
When people are aware of who they are, they're more comfortable in being able to say yes to an opportunity and no when it's not right for them. But if I, you know, went to work tomorrow and I was suddenly offered, you know, a promotion to something that wasn't on my career path initially. You know, and someone said to me, this, I think you'd be great for this job.
It actually requires a bit of self-awareness to be able to say yes or no to that opportunity. And sometimes people are, are better at doing that than others.
[00:26:26] Speaker 10: Mm mm I hear a sense of like, we can't quite predict what is happening, right. Like, but the ability to be able to hold it lightly. I want to go in this direction, something else show up.
And then you can have the ability to play around with it.
Yes it is. I can see this being a potential, or maybe this might not be a potential, but the ability to, even just to create that sense of like the sense of self, you know, when you are an autopilot, when you are very busy, sometimes we, like you said, like after 10, 20 years, do we stop and say, where am I now?
Definitely.
[00:27:01] Speaker 11: I should also say too, that you can make your own luck as well. Mm-hmm. So if you're just assuming that someone's gonna hand you this, you know, career change or whatever you're looking for, it doesn't quite work like that. You still have to be aware of what you are going to towards. And then try and make it happen too.
Um, I don't think it's just being a passive person in that whole process.
[00:27:22] Speaker 10: And I'm guessing this is where the experiment comes with, like, what is the first thing that I can go, I'm gonna reach out to Ruth and have a conversation and see what that, what comes out of that. And then maybe you have the next step and then go and explore that.
[00:27:37] Speaker 11: I agree. Yeah. So informational interviews where you just have a coffee chat with someone or a Zoom chat, you know, can work really well to help you understand, you know, how that person has shaped their career and whether you want to be doing something similar. Questions you can ask, uh, things like, you know, what do you love about your job and what are things that keep you up at night?
What advice would you give to me if I'm thinking of making a career change, for example, to this type of job, or even just, you know, asking questions about how they got to where they are.
[00:28:08] Speaker 10: . Ruth. So like we're talking a lot about like this ability to experiment, to open up to see what shows up. What is the role of creativity in everything that we've been exploring here today?
[00:28:20] Speaker 11: Uh, that's a really, really good question. I. Think that creativity plays a part in being able to think differently about your career and about the world. Interestingly enough, I've been recently facilitating some groups doing the Artist's Way, which is a book by Julia Cameron. It was written about 30 years ago.
It's been around for a long time. It's kind of got almost like this cult following and she provides a lot of tools in that book. But the idea is to recover your creativity and I feel that a lot of us and she actually mentions lawyers a couple of times in the book and talks about them in terms of being shadow artists.
So often people who become lawyers are incredibly intelligent people who have a love of the written word. And you'll often see lawyers becoming things like comedians or authors or actors, you know, a lot of them are very, very creative and I think that it is interesting when you think about how can you incorporate creativity into your everyday life. And what she suggests doing are morning pages, which are three pages of subconscious writing, and you do that long hand and it's ideally doing just as you wake up so that you can sort of put what's ever on your mind onto the page. But she also talks about artist's date. Which are one to two hours a week where you go on a solo date with your inner artist to feed your creativity.
Um, and this is, this could be something quite traditional, like going to an art gallery, or it could be like going to a a, a fruit and veg market and just looking at the colors that are there. I've, as I said, I've been leading, I've been facilitating a couple of groups in this, but I've been doing the book again each time myself.
And there are some amazing sort of insights that you gain from trying to recover your creativity. But I feel that for me, the interesting thing talking about experimentation was that I got the most creativity out of facilitating the groups. So while I thought I was gonna be, you know, creating a book or you know, doing something that I was quite open to, what I found was most exciting was leading groups of people for me.
So I guess what I'd say to you is don't expect when you do these sort of experimentations that you are going to come out with the outcome that you thought you were going in it for. It may actually be something quite different. So I hope that answers your question. Yeah.
[00:30:56] Speaker 8: What I really like about that is that when we opened, Ruth, you told us about running away with the science circus.
Right? And that that was one solution. But what I heard in what you just said was that, uh. Engaging in some of those practices doesn't necessarily mean that outcome. And it could just be about like, it's not about quitting your job and becoming an artist, right? Or it could be like you gave those examples of the plenty of comedians that are out there that have got law degrees.
But what it is actually about is reclaiming those parts of you, right, that you, that, that bring that creativity and perhaps it might be a really surprising result, like the facilitation example that you just gave. So, yeah, it's really interesting to think about how it can really affect and impact all parts of your life, including your professional life in perhaps ways you never imagined.
[00:31:49] Speaker 11: Yeah. I like to think of it and, and Julia Cameron talks about it in the book, um, is this, you know, you might be asking for apples, you know, as, as what you're wanting to get out of whatever task you're doing. But then instead you get oranges. So don't assume that you're going to get what you are asking for.
But it doesn't mean that like oranges are any better or worse necessarily than apples. It's just you've gotta be open to what comes back. Um, which sounds very sort of new age, but I actually think for me, that's what happened when I was leading these groups.
[00:32:23] Speaker 8: Okay, well look, thank you. Re we've covered so much today.
Like, you know, all about risk, about reflection, about storytelling, your own story happendipity creativity, if there's one kind of final message or to kind of draw it all together that you'd like lawyers to take away. Yeah. What would it be?
[00:32:46] Speaker 11: I think if I were to choose one thing, for any of my clients to take away, it's this idea that luck does happen.
It's happendipity, as I call it. It's being able to tap into that, that will make the difference for your career. And there are many ways to do that, but one of those is changing your mindset.
Um, and I think that if people can take away that one valuable lesson, I think that can help them going forward. And if anyone wants to read the articles on the interviews that I've been conducting, I'm happy for them to connect with me on LinkedIn.
Um, more than happy, but also just go to my website, which is careerstorytelling.com.au. And there are all the interviews that I've been conducting on this with a number of people in different careers. You know, people can make up their own mind about how they want to take it.
[00:33:47] Speaker 8: Okay. Thank you. We'll definitely put the LinkedIn and the um, website in the show notes so that people can find you .
So thank you so much for joining us. It was really, um, both practical and inspiring at the same time, so we really appreciate it.
[00:34:02] Speaker 11: Thanks to both you and Kathleen and to Carla as well. I've really enjoyed it.
[00:34:06] Speaker 8: Yeah. Thank you. Thank you.
[00:34:09] Kathleen: Thank you so much for listening to this episode of the thriving lawyer with Kathleen Brenner and Carla Ferraz, if you like it, please share it with your lawyer friends and colleagues, and tag us on Instagram at @thriving lawyer or on LinkedIn via the links in the show notes. And if you liked what you heard, please drop a review in apple podcasts.
It really helps spread the word.
If you'd like to work with us, check out our free resources and our signature course, the thriving lawyer which you will find at www.thrivinglawyer.com.au. You can also download our free guide, the lawyer's guide to thriving: a sustainable roadmap for success.
It's filled with great tips and ideas so that you can begin to make real change. You'll find the link to that in our show notes.
We hope this podcast has given you massive value. And that you can use it to begin to create your own thriving life. A life where you can thrive as a lawyer. And in the rest of your life.
