[00:00:02] Kathleen: You are listening to The Thriving Lawyer With Kathleen Brenner and Carla Ferraz. I'm Kathleen, a highly experienced
lawyer and an International Coaching Federation accredited coach.
[00:00:14] Carla: And I am Carla. Like Kathleen, I am an ICF certified coach and I have worked with top leaders and professionals, many of them lawyers, at some of the world's biggest organizations.
My focus is on using evidence based approaches to help my clients thrive at work and in the rest of their lives. Together,
[00:00:36] Kathleen: we bring you the Thriving Lawyer podcast, a podcast filled with ideas and inspiration, as well as practical tips to help you thrive as a lawyer and in the rest of your
life. Let's get into it. β
So welcome to the Thriving Lawyer with Kathleen Brenner and my co-host Carla Ferez. And today we have a guest joining us, someone who has a unique perspective in terms of her interaction with the legal profession. And that is Angela Grant. So Angela is Brisbane based. She sees the evolution of the legal profession from a very interesting vantage point as a recruiter.
A talent strategist and a blogger. So welcome Angela.
[00:01:21] Angela Grant: Hi Kathleen. Hi Carla. Thanks for having me today.
Not a problem. We really grateful that you've come and had this conversation and perhaps there's a good starting point. Why don't you just tell our audience a little bit about yourself and and why you're here today?
Excellent. I have been legal recruiting now for nine years, which is quite exciting. I'm Brisbane based and have a large network here in Southeast Queensland, but I also work very strongly in the Sydney market. Perth. Sometimes even Melbourne. My practice is probably 50% law firms, so I help a lot of law firms with hiring, usually from second year lawyers all the way up to partner level.
I have a real passion for in-house, so working with general counsels and head of HR to either build their teams from scratch or add in lateral hires, help out with some grad roles. Also, I also play in the risk and compliance area and company secretary and governance roles. So it's becoming wider, but good variety of opportunities that I get to work on.
I've got a small team here in Brisbane. It's myself and my colleague Beck Strong. Beck generally looks after all of our support roles. I look after legal professional or anyone with a qualification when we're a small but mighty team up here. Excellent. Thank you. Look forward to hearing about your perspective, because what we see when we talk to lawyers about the sheath of wellbeing, often there's a lot of confusion about how to even think about or plan a career.
So your first question that we have. Sure.
[00:03:01] Carla: Well, good morning and thank you both for the introduction. Yeah. So Angela, we are really excited to hear a bit more about what you've been noticing, like, you know, the trends in the legal market, like sort of shifting away from that traditional legal path like towards like graduate to partner.
What have you seen playing out differently in law firms?
[00:03:23] Angela Grant: It's exciting Carla, because I think the legal industry, it's been very linear. You know, go to a good university, get the degree, land a grad role and you're often racing. And then you'll either try and land in a good law firm and once you earn your dues there, perhaps around senior associate level, you go look for an in-house role or, or make a play for partnership.
So we've really seen that linear and very structured environment in legal. In the last couple of years we're seeing with the growth of in-house teams, so in-house teams are, are growing in Australia, there seems to be. More appetite for bigger budgets for legal teams internally, and they just play such an important role for businesses.
So with the adding on of extra team members, we're seeing a lot of lawyers step away from having to go on that very linear journey. A couple of examples are that not every general counsel that I work with now has been in a law firm and a top tier law firm, and they haven't had to have that trajectory of ticking the boxes and then.
Popping out. I work popping out as a legal legal leader later in life. So I work with general counsels now that they might have started with a business in a procurement role, and then concurrently they're finishing a legal degree and then they go into the legal team. And then I think what's gotten them to the top job is their interest and commitment to the business, and they just become such a great knowledge source.
It really, they get to, they really work very well with cross-functional teams and get a lot of wins on the board, which really sends them in the right direction into that top role as a general counsel, law firms, there is very much merit in going through, you know, getting the good grad role and going through that traditional training.
But we sometimes see candidates join law firms from in-house now that that's very common. Or they might have been compliance or policy in government or in in-house, and then they pop into a law firm. So there it's different entry points, which is really nice. And I think it's from, lawyers are very proactive about their careers these days.
So where they start off looking for something, they might see, oh, I need, I've got this skills gap. And they'll proactively go and find it, whether it be in house, in government, in law firm. So I think even the individuals, the lawyers are sort of looking around to see, you know, where can I further bolster my skills?
And luckily there are a lot more opportunities, which is very positive.
[00:06:00] Kathleen: So what, what really strikes me there is you're emphasizing what I see with my colleagues, the lawyers that are in my circle from the time that I went to universities, building up my career in the public sector. A lot more flexibility in terms of the movement between the different sectors both ways.
One of the challenges that I think it's, you know, you talk so powerfully there about like being proactive and identifying the skills gaps. I think too though, was once. There's more flexibility and there's so much possibility. One of the hard things can still be navigating that in terms of like finding the right fit.
And sometimes you're not gonna know until you experiment with the kind of work that you wanna do. Is it the law firm? The. Work that suits you or is an in-house role or even a go, you know, in-house government role, gonna be more consistent with your skills and the kind of life. And to me, one of the things that we're about in the Thriving lawyer is really trying to make sure that lawyers don't just use other people's metrics, right?
That they have got that internal self-reflection, that awareness of their values, their intrinsic motivation, right? So that they can experiment, build careers that really work for them.
[00:07:14] Angela Grant: I see that too, Kathleen, and I think lawyers, I always think that lawyers have almost that spidey senses. They know within the first 10 to 15 minutes of meeting someone, do I wanna work with this leader?
Does this business align with my values? Am I gonna really get the right outcome here in this law firm? Or do I need to take this sideward step? I think sometimes lawyers can choose the leader as well, so you know, sometimes you can work as a leader and they can get you so far in your career, but then at points you have to think, you know what?
I think my capability needs to be pushed by someone else, or I need a different lens on what I can do in this team. And that creates a lot of mobility in the market as well.
[00:08:01] Carla: And it's so important to have that ability to have that self reflection, like creating space to understand yourself and to then know, like as you're saying, like is that the right job for me?
[00:08:11] Angela Grant: Yeah, definitely.
[00:08:12] Kathleen: I know just as a little anecdote, Angela, when I was very junior, well, not junior, I was actually got to a senior lawyer level already. There was only one role that I think I took a short term secondment at one point that was supposed to be a year, and I reckon I knew you within. Very early that it wasn't quite the right fit.
But I restricted at that time out of a sense of, I didn't wanna feel like I'd failed at it. I wanted to give it a real hot go and reflecting back. Yeah, it's interesting. I definitely learned a lot about myself in that job as much as for what I didn't like as to what was important to me. It was tough at the time.
I did learn something from it though in that
[00:08:54] Angela Grant: good resilience probably came out of that blink and into my mute a little bit about, I've had a couple of these conversations since the COVID times. There was this huge trend. We all got outta COVID. Legal teams had budget. It was BAU again, and there was a lot of growth and momentum in the industry.
Candidates of mine were sometimes going for a 45 minute interview with the hiring partner, so like the general counsel and perhaps someone, maybe a commercial manager or HR in the room as well, but one interview and they'd walk out and they would have a job offer by the end of the day. And it was a really good uplift in remuneration as well, because it all tied into a little bit more buoyant salaries.
So things happened really quick after COVID, and sometimes things came together and you know, worked out very smoothly. But I've had a lot of conversations with other people and a whole range of candidates that rang me and said, Angela, I got a really good salary. I thought it was a good team at the time, but I'm drowning.
It's not right. Or it's, you know, I rushed into it and. It's not quite the work mix I wanted for my future, or you know, perhaps it hasn't materialized as seamless as they thought it would. So I spoke to a lot of lawyers just after COVID, who. Like yourself, Kathleen. Not in that thriving environment. They saw the best in a bad situation and they reflected, I'm gonna stick it out.
I'm gonna, you know, see what it can bring to my CV and meet some interesting stakeholders. Take the best outta a bad situation. I think look good lawyers can actually do that. Sort of like you summarize that, it's probably not gonna be my favorite role, but on reflection, I needed that 12 months in that role.
And you know, you can move on and you feel like you've done a good enough job, but you know the grass is greener sometimes.
But yeah, sometimes that happens.
[00:10:48] Kathleen: Yeah. Maybe that's a good point to jump in 'cause you work, you know, you said at the opening you work primarily in the Brisbane market, got links and also in Sydney and Perth, and even Melbourne.
What else have you been noticing in terms of what's happening in the market, the agility, the kind of flexibility perhaps that lawyers have required? I'll let you take that in the direction you like.
[00:11:12] Angela Grant: Thank you. I think flexibility's so individual, isn't it? You know, for someone it might be just a later start on a Tuesday, or for others it's working a 0.8 or a 0.9 full-time equivalent role.
And I think what I've seen is the more senior a candidate is, I feel as if there's more flexibility on the table. We've better flexibility offered. We are having more people returning, you know, mothers and fathers returning to the workforce at a greater capacity, which is really exciting and it's bringing in some really good skills and you know, cross-functional teams as well, a building from that as well.
So I'm seeing a lot of, someone might be in a compliance role in a large organization, maybe a fin services company, and then they've got a law degree. So now they go into a legal counsel role and then they might, in five years time, they might go for a commercial role. We are seeing even general counsels move into COO roles, which is, I've seen a couple of those in the last 18 months and I've reached out to those general counsels and it's so exciting for their career path as well.
The traditional lawyer model, it doesn't have to just be a black letter lawyer lawyer and you're gonna have this same role for the next 10 years. Yeah, a lot more tra transient and exciting for, for different people
[00:12:36] Kathleen: there's so much opportunity there. And I see it too because I know, you know, even in my life, female lawyer, other women, lawyers that I know who've perhaps come back after children and they've still got the primary caring responsibilities they're trying to juggle.
With being the kind of lawyer that they wanna be. They're navigating careers that are challenging. They wanna do great work. What I'm hearing from you is that there's new potential and new opportunities that have come that weren't there before. Yeah, definitely. But I imagine too, that has its own.
Challenges in terms of navigating perceptions about the flexibility that you might get or linger in old fashioned views in the profession or challenges to actually make it work when your client demands?
[00:13:27] Angela Grant: Yeah, and I do, I feel as if when we are shortlisting. There will be, say if we've shortlist and there's four candidates on the shortlist and maybe three on a long list, and the general counsel in HR will sit down and we'll really summarize who we wanna meet, and perhaps if they only pick three candidates.
I feel like one outta three will want some flexibility and even like a 0.9. And I can see the general counsel looking going like, oh, or the law firm partner going, oh goodness, this is, you know, I'm gonna have to restructure the role and what are we gonna do on that fifth day? And I think it does create a little bit of extra work, but once they get it right, I think that you, you're having someone in the business who is really grateful for that flexibility.
Generally, this is. I'd say a generalization is that the more senior the candidate is, they're able to slip into the 0.8 0.9 or, you know, I work from home every Tuesday and Thursday, the easier it is and I just hand on heart feel that a really good senior lawyer who works four days a week, I really think their output would be fantastic.
So I think the world is getting a little bit more amenable to having the part-time or flexibility in general. Yeah, it's bringing in a lot of good skills and people are looking for, that person would be able to mentor and run matters, and a very nice holistic lawyer at that level.
[00:14:53] Kathleen: Look, that's my life at the moment, working four days a week at a new model law firm remotely, primarily.
Honestly, I have gotten so much benefit because. I love being engaged in public law still. I like working with the lawyers in the team who are more junior, and I love that mentoring aspect of the work that keeps me going and really engaged in the legal work. But also what that has done for me is that it's given me the space to do the things that I'm doing right now with you to build the thriving way to have other passions while still being able to be a good lawyer and.
For me that's exciting too about, you know, I don't have my own family and children, but for me I've got that. That shouldn't be a reason why I can't have that same flexibility. 'cause we often frame those discussion in terms of parents, but for me it's been about pursuit of my own career goals that are a bit more like portfolio in nature, which is probably a little unusual for women.
[00:15:55] Angela Grant: Yeah. Oh, I think it's on the rise as well. And yeah. Good on you Kathleen. I think that. That's great. And so I think it enhances your whole lifestyle. You know, you can have your external outlet, you're still a very strong technical lawyer working with sophisticated clients. Yeah.
[00:16:13] Carla: Well, it's so beautiful just to hear like this whole growth mindset setting in action in the examples that you're giving and the story of Kathleen as well.
Right, which is the core principle that we teach is like using the the challenges or the asks of the client. As a learning opportunity rather than a limitation like in, in, because there is someone senior here in this role, that person would be the best fit. How do we might adapt to get the best output, right?
Because like it's flourishing, like it's thriving in their legal career and the rest of their lives as well. Like as, as you have space to do the things that is most fulfilling.
[00:16:51] Angela Grant: And do you know what Carla, it can even be a cost saving because we've had a recent in-house role where. We had an ex g general counsel who was ready to, didn't need the next GC role, was happy to take a senior role.
They've gone into a role four days a week, so really the, the client is saving around 30 to $40,000 per annum, but they're getting someone for four days a week who? Can really add some value. Also support the current gc and yeah, that, that was a very popular role to work on because we advertised it as a salary band in the early 200 thousands plus super.
Or we said we could have someone more senior on four days a week for the same package. So I think it's the business accounting model as well. They're happy and yeah, you know, finance team are happy, good value senior in the role and. A lot of contribution.
[00:17:44] Carla: I'm glad to hear that there's this adaptation, right?
We are following the, the curiosity, the opportunities, and opening up to something that maybe you couldn't have been thinking before when you created that, that role, right? Yeah. How do you see the hiring priorities evolving now? What do you think are the law firms and house teams looking for beyond the technical skills?
I think.
[00:18:09] Angela Grant: Law firms are starting to really recognize that. They're very happy to have that the candidates and the lawyers engage with their clients. So they want someone who can, a big client facing pretty quickly. Historically, it was like the partner and the seniors and the law firm speak to the client, and if you are a second year lawyer.
Just keep on doing the drafting and we'll send out the work. Certainly in top tier firms it is a little bit more bureaucratic and hierarchical, but in other firms, we're seeing that they do want someone who can build really strong client relationships. That way the lawyers are more rewarded. So, you know, it can be hard to have all the demands of a wide range of clients, but if you've got those relationships, I think the legal work is better produced because you can understand the client's pain points and what they're really trying to achieve with this advice.
Someone that's building those relationships is really good in a law firm, and that's always been the case in house, I think it is. Primarily it's about servicing those internal stakeholders and finding, sometimes there's that old saying like the squeaky wheel gets the oil, but I know when I speak to good in-house lawyers, they're like, there might be the finance team jumping up for a contract review, but someone in the back, some part of the business might not be making that much noise.
And I think that a good lawyer in house will sort of go, do you know what I think I'm gonna go and see. Marketing or this team. So it's not just that, it's more of a strategic view when you can sort of understand what the landscape is, help whoever's needing it immediately, but sort of think about what else, what am I missing here?
Relationships with clients, relationships internally, and it's just about being curious and looking around and seeing what value you can bring. I think it's also being good at your job or being reliable. Mostly all the leaders that I work with, I think they've proven themselves because they, you know, they do their day job very well, and then the relationships have built on top of that.
So they're trusted, I suppose, as well.
[00:20:16] Carla: I see that so much in coaching as well, just coaching leaders in organization in general, like the technical expertise is important. It's, you know, need to be able to prove that. But the ability to feel confident, to be self-aware and tap into that relationship is so, so important, right?
Like following the curiosity adapted to, to the different contexts. Let me have these conversations here and see what's gonna emerge from that. He sort of like still to create the sustainable impact, but it takes some sort of courage and confidence and ability, your own ability to be able to show up and have those conversations and build those relationships.
[00:20:54] Kathleen: Mm-hmm. Yeah, look, I see that, and that's one of the reasons that we have started the Thriving lawyer because that's, I think, you know, having that awareness and that self-awareness, it's not actually something that. A lot of lawyers are good at it, but I think it's something that you can learn and you can train yourself and you can learn how to better reflect to train yourself into those emotional intelligence, essentially skills that are so fundamental.
And that's a good way to kind of lead into where we wanted to go next here, which is that, you know, you in your role work with law firms, all sorts of legal employers, and you've placed general counsel, senior leaders into jobs. Some of them may not have followed that classic route, some of them might have, but like what has really helped those to stand out, that have done well?
Like what's the like, you know, is there an X factor or something that you see in terms of a theme, or is it all different?
[00:21:52] Angela Grant: They're curious. They're consistent. They collaborate well, like those three Cs, they're very much interested in their work. They master their day-to-day very well, and they do this, and then they ask for more.
You know, they might put their hand up to run a project, put their hand up to be a, you know, a whole range of ask for that next step, ask for that push in their career. And I think. Those that are being proactive about what they want or even evaluating where their gaps are. So it doesn't just happen that one performance review every six months.
It's something that you're reflecting on maybe every couple of years and go, you know what I'm needing to update, or, I'm enjoying my privacy and data protection. So maybe they'll move into a role or put their hand up to run a roll out of that in the business. So I think it's, yeah, being proactive and chasing what.
What really resonates with them because there's so, like, the legal industry is so broad, and I think it comes down to if they are more passionate about an area or they're more passionate about, you know, building their broader skills, they're the ones that are excelling and, and they are, they're very consistent and curious and they collaborate well.
So what that means a lot of, a lot of different things for different lawyers, but, but I think those three C's really help.
[00:23:14] Kathleen: I know really kind of a theme that's coming through there is this idea of evolution and growth, right? So it's never stagnant of you just turning up, you're doing the same kind of legal work that you're comfortable with and kind of getting stuck potentially.
And I actually see this sometimes with specialists who find themselves having got really senior, perhaps in an area they never really planned like they got placed when they were a grad. They have. Climbed the ranks. They've got themselves very senior, and sometimes it can be really difficult if they're starting to wanna branch out in that traditional firm.
But a lot of what we've talked about seems to be with the flexibility.
Yeah, legal profession. There are opportunities to avoid finding yourself in that place.
[00:23:55] Angela Grant: And I think when I'm even coaching lawyers, I've got a candidate at the moment who is moving from a defendant insurance background into a broader commercial litigation background in a law firm.
And what we're just trying, when I'm coaching them on how they should present an interview and even structure their cv, it's a whole process to make that change. I think once you've proven that, you know, if you're an expert at defendant insurance and you've done that to a really high level, why don't you go to an interview and explain that how comfortable and how well you've been able to master that.
We are not over promising your skills in commercial litigation, but let's talk about the foundation of skills and how you'll be able to use your other skills to get there and make that jump. Things like that. It is more common, and I think you're right Kathleen, that you know, lawyers can get pigeonholed and be pushed along the specialty path.
These days, I think there's a lot of roundabouts, laterals stepping into in-house, stepping into government, and all the way back again. You know, it's really, it's certainly not linear and I think a lot of the foundation of skills, there is some transferability into a lot of different areas because it's not just the black letter law.
We want someone who can be inquisitive and go and find out what the real problem is and communicate that well to the internal or external stakeholders. Yeah.
[00:25:22] Carla: There's that power of self-reflection again, right? The ability to like stop and say, well, I've done this for so long, how might this skill be transferred to something else?
And being able to articulate that in a conversation. And sometimes like with that self-reflection, we discover our self-help. 'cause the first site was like, well, I've been this area. I can't work anywhere else. This is all what I know. But as you open up and bring this sort of curiosity, sometimes we discover things that we don't know.
And, and having those conversations and helping people, or this is how I, I've been working today. This is how I, you know, I've, I've been using that skill. How might I use it differently? Angela? How, how, like, well we talked about senior lawyers, but like bringing back to junior, like people that are starting their careers now.
What advice would you give them?
[00:26:10] Angela Grant: I think they've sort of got. Be reflective on their early career and reflect on am I working with a leader who is giving me the, the stretch that I need? When I, when I, you know, need to be pushed, do I have a really good peer-to-peer network of learning opportunities as well?
Are there. Touch points for my development, not just in my immediate boss, or can I go to like a commercial manager or someone in maybe legal operations in a law firm. So looking for your touch points in your network and supporters like that. I think they should be looking around for that type of support and always just sort of checking in and reevaluating.
Is this really in line with my long-term career goals? Am I on the right track? So those little touch points would be good. And it totally is about reflection and I think lawyers generally do a really good job of this. They are curious. I'm not a lawyer, I'm not legally trained, but I just find them so fascinating.
I'm obsessed with lawyers as you can see, but I think they really do have a natural sense of let's just take stock, reflect on what I'm doing well, am I enjoying this part of my role that like I have a lot of conversations and lawyers will ring and say, you know what? My role, I've really enjoyed the company.
I've enjoyed the role, but I feel like I'm getting pigeonholed as, you know, the privacy officer. And I've tried to give away this part of the, my job and or, or tried to, you know, share it around or build capability in something else. And they haven't been able to shake it. So they do move. And I think that's, that's good awareness that you know, that they need a different change.
And there's plenty of options out there, which is great.
[00:27:49] Kathleen: Mm. So just adding into that, like the self-reflection is fundamental. But along with that comes something that is really crucial to us, like when we are coaching, which is this idea of experimentation. Mm-hmm. Sometimes and using to test and to try and.
I don't think you can know before. Totally give it a go. That comes to that lesson about that, you know, the job that I had that didn't, what, wasn't quite what I'd hoped it was. But boy did I learn a lot from that in the future years. That really helped me.
[00:28:21] Angela Grant: Good testing. Yeah. You've gotta go with it. That's great.
[00:28:25] Kathleen: So, and you, you encourage professionals and lawyers in particular to think about their careers as a lattice, right? Mm-hmm. Not, not this kind of. Vertical ladder where you're going up and down. I mean, we've probably touched on this a bit, but is there anything else you'd like to add about the mindset for lawyers in terms of navigating that career?
[00:28:45] Angela Grant: Just see opportunity in all of your directions. It might feel like a very lateral move, but the opportunities to upskill or backtrack and really become proficient in something else. To see opportunity in every direction. So. You can move laterally and go after things that are of interest and of passion to you.
Just see the opportunity in all your directions and your mindset needs to be flexible. So go and try something new and be flexible with your mindset that you'll get some gain experience in different areas. And keep on just reflecting on yourself and have that honest reflection. Am I going in the right path?
Do I have the right leader? Do I have the right people around me? Do I have peer to peer learning? Do I have those touch points? Do I have a mentor? Am I doing enough external stuff for my own growth? So I think just keeping on focusing like that and know that the legal industry is not as linear, it's super exciting that we can have a lot of different career paths as we become more senior and legal.
[00:29:55] Kathleen: Thank you for that. I mean. What comes through to there is that there is choice. If lawyers take, have the right mindset to go out and look for it and to look for the opportunity and see them, and that for them to create careers that work for them. And where they can actually thrive. We don't want lawyers.
You know, the statistics in terms of lawyer wellbeing are still quite dire across profession, notwithstanding our ability to self-reflect and the curiosity and the intelligence. So there is clearly still work to be done, but I'm really pleased to hear from you with what you see every day in terms of people coming through your business and being placed in all sorts of legal roles that there is this possibility to experiment, to reflect, to change. That the fact that your career is rarely gonna be like this straight line and that there is agency that you can identify and really capture, right? That like there's this success, this idea of success is not this preordained idea that might have existed and maybe that old fashioned idea is perfect for a whole lot of people.
It's not to, we're not judging that because there is a whole lot of value in that. But I think what we are talking about is being very deliberate and choosing and experimenting to create what works for you in such a diverse profession. So yeah. Thank you Angela. We really appreciate your time. Carla, is there anything that you'd like to ask or add at the end too with Angela?
[00:31:28] Carla: Well, it just, that aligns very much with what we've been discussing, the thriving lawyer, like the idea of experimentation, of reflection, the evaluating. So it's really rewarding to hear that you seeing that as well in the industry, right? As you replace, it's not rigid anymore. It can be for some, like say if it fits, but if it doesn't, if it's not.
What is fitting your life at the moment? It's nice to know that there is this ability, like it's a living system, right? And we are growing and the system is growing with us. So this would be a village to be able to choose and create opportunities for ourselves. All three of us here have very different careers that we all create, know, we created, right?
Mm-hmm. Because me to reflect and because we, we are curious, and I can say from a little bit that I know about, you know, both of you, that with you thrive in our legal profession, right? And that created space for us to thrive fit, but personally as well.
[00:32:21] Angela Grant: Yes, definitely. Yeah.
[00:32:25] Kathleen: Angela, where can our listeners find you, like if they wanted to, if they're looking to move roles or they wanna have a chat and explore, like where, where can they find you?
[00:32:35] Angela Grant: I very easily found on LinkedIn under Angela Grant or my business day one recruitment.com au. Very happy to catch up and. Talk about any market trends that I'm seeing for any lawyers, like specific area, be it in-house risk compliance, law firm land. Happy to share what I'm seeing in regards to remuneration benefits and other market trends in those silos.
So welcome a chat and yeah, look forward to keeping in touch with you ladies, and thank you so much for having me on today.
[00:33:08] Kathleen: Oh, thank you. It's been a pleasure.
[00:33:11] Angela Grant: Thank you.
Thank you so much for listening to this episode of the thriving lawyer with Kathleen Brenner and Carla Ferraz, if you like it, please share it with your lawyer friends and colleagues, and tag us on Instagram at @thriving lawyer or on LinkedIn via the links in the show notes. And if you liked what you heard, please drop a review in apple podcasts.
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