[00:00:02] Kathleen: You are listening to The Thriving Lawyer With Kathleen Brenner and Carla Ferraz. I'm Kathleen, a highly experienced
[00:00:09] Kathleen: lawyer and an International Coaching Federation accredited coach.
[00:00:14] Carla: And I am Carla. Like Kathleen, I am an ICF certified coach and I have worked with top leaders and professionals, many of them lawyers, at some of the world's biggest organizations.
[00:00:27] Carla: My focus is on using evidence based approaches to help my clients thrive at work and in the rest of their lives. Together,
[00:00:36] Kathleen: we bring you the Thriving Lawyer podcast, a podcast filled with ideas and inspiration, as well as practical tips to help you thrive as a lawyer and in the rest of your
[00:00:48] Kathleen: life. Let's get into it. β
[00:00:52] Kathleen: Okay. Welcome to the Thriving Lawyer Podcast. I'm Kathleen, and I'm here with Carla, my co-host and fellow coach. Today we are going to explore an idea that is really important for us all, and I think lawyers, are no exception, there might be particular ways that it shows up or is relevant for us. Both in our professional lives and in our lives more generally.
[00:01:18] Kathleen: And that is the difference between expectations and agreements. So welcome color. I hope you're well today, and I'm keen to hear what you have to say about this.
[00:01:31] Carla: Yeah. Hello. Hello everyone. Um, expectations versus agreement. So that's a really powerful distinction and we will explore the work of Steve Chandin.
[00:01:41] Carla: He's a coach and an author. He really brought this concept alive for us. So Steve describes expectations as being toxic because they offer generate resentment, disappointment, and sometimes even rebellion. So expectations are usually unspoken. Um, they're one sided and they can be imposed as well, so they feel really heavy for both the person who holds them and for the one receiving as well.
[00:02:13] Carla: Then on the other hand, we have agreements, and agreements are co-created. They are clear, they're courageous. You know, they require a dialogue. And then also the power of listening and being honest. And that makes them much more healthier. They more sustainable. And in a legal profession where you know, there's high pressure and high stakes, this concept can be really useful.
[00:02:40] Carla: We will unpack what it means for lawyers, why it matters so much in practice, and how can we shift from running on expectations to building really clear and real agreements.
[00:02:53] Kathleen: So yeah, look, it's funny because lawyers of all people are probably the group that think they understand agreements the most, right?
[00:03:03] Kathleen: Many lawyers, particularly if they're in contract law, but. Entering into agreements is a fundamental part of the role. Drafting them, creating them, we negotiate them, and then once they're made, there's the enforcement of those agreements, the management of them. But I suppose what comes up is, well, there's a certain irony in that because when it comes to our own teams, the clients that we work with, and perhaps also even ourselves.
[00:03:34] Kathleen: It's so easy to operate without any clear agreements. There might be expectations, whether they're explicit or not. Um, so we're running on the whole way we operating. Our teams might be about assumptions about what we, the team or others will do. Unspoken expectations about what we expect others to be doing and PR on that we perhaps place on others.
[00:04:00] Kathleen: Others place on us that we place on ourselves. And then unsurprisingly, we wonder why things really just fall apart, or why maybe some of our relationships might feel strained. And I think that in busy legal environments, particularly when you've got a lot to do, you might have time, you know, really compressed timeframes to deliver a lot of work.
[00:04:22] Kathleen: You might be dealing on court. Timetables that can have a real impact. So, you know, it's interesting. Lawyers of course, would say, well, they know of a value of a contract in law. Um, you know, it's fundamental. It's just a key part of the way our world operates and the, their importance in terms of creating clarity about the obligations of each party to the agreement, their responsibilities.
[00:04:51] Kathleen: The accountability mechanisms, what happens when you breach the agreement? All of those things are really clear yet in our professional lives. It's really interesting to think about how often we sometimes rely on these vague expectations instead of actually creating the clear cut agreements with others.
[00:05:13] Kathleen: And another thing that you know really comes to mind when, when we were exploring this, I reflected on a. Really senior lawyer I once worked for who kept talking about her expectations of the team, and of course she was thinking about it in terms of high performance, right? She wanted a high performance, so she thought, and it was interesting, I, I'm interested in your views about whether you think there's value there.
[00:05:41] Kathleen: She thought that by making these expectations clear. People would be able to know what she expected from them 'cause they were explicit in terms of performance. But what I saw was a whole lot of unhappy people feeling like somebody else's external standard was being imposed on them rather than what she could have done is talk to the team about creating a shared agreement about what that high performance looked like.
[00:06:14] Kathleen: So that people had buy-in and there was intrinsic motivation because in that case, what I saw, she thought she was genuinely being a high performance leader who was creating an environment in a team where standards were really high. I saw unhappy people who felt like they were being disempowered who didn't have a say.
[00:06:39] Kathleen: In thinking about what that looked like. So yeah, I know that's a little extra element to throw in there, Carla, but what does that resonate with you at all? Absolutely. That's a great
[00:06:48] Carla: example. Like I was about to give an example. You gave even about a way better one. A real one as well, right? Because a lot of the time expectations, it's one sided.
[00:06:58] Carla: I expect you to perform well, I expect you to do this. And the opposite of our agreements are very different, right? Can we agree together? What is realistic here? Can we agree together? What are high performing ttes? What support might you need to deliver in this way? So there is a sort of like a, you are listening, there's ownership from both sides.
[00:07:24] Carla: Like it's more like there's that accountability, there is a level of commitment. So I mean, in the end of the day, you both wanted the same thing, but there wasn't enough. Space to actually create that agreement, right? Sometimes we come with the expectation, if I just say what I want, people will go and follow.
[00:07:43] Carla: Hold on, let me see. How can they follow? Um, yeah, it, it, it's really important to, to set those clear agreements to make sure that they are, that, that we spend time, especially like sometimes the agreements are there and things are going well, but when, when they are not, when you're not moving forward. When you ask for your team to perform well and they are not performing well, you know, maybe there is something here to, that could be a signal, right?
[00:08:15] Carla: Red flag, well like click there. It maybe there is not a true agreement in place and in rather than pushing like with the expectations, it's like, okay, do I actually have an agreement here? Did we both commit to this? Did we both clarify what is needed? Yeah, there is no real agreement if it's just expectations, like, and we can't hold expectation, can't hold the weight of it.
[00:08:47] Carla: Mm-hmm. Usually frustration and blame and you started creeping like the things that you were noticing,
[00:08:53] Kathleen: but also maybe de-motivation, like in that example I just gave. People felt that they didn't have a say in it and that their reality wasn't being acknowledged in terms of the challenges that they were dealing with that were affecting their, the way that they were working.
[00:09:08] Kathleen: So there was like this kind of lack of communication that was going on there. Um, and people left, like, yeah,
[00:09:16] Carla: and that's the thing. Sometimes if the trust in the environment doesn't allow to actually have those kind of conversations, to stand up and say, Hey, hold on, what do you mean by. Um, high performing team, youre step to create some of those agreements.
[00:09:32] Carla: If that is not, if there isn't space for that, it becomes really difficult.
[00:09:36] Kathleen: So it's interesting like talking about all of this around expectations and a lot of what you said would apply to, you know, absolutely any workplace. But I think thinking about lawyers, you know, there are so many expectations, right?
[00:09:50] Kathleen: In terms of from clients from. The partners that we work for, if that's our working arrangement, our supervisors and the judges in the systems, um, regulators, but then also outside our immediate workplaces in terms of, you know, family obligations and expectations. So many lawyers work in a model where they're having to deliver, um, and record billable hours in six minute increments.
[00:10:19] Kathleen: Responsiveness in terms of what they're expected to do, perfection in drafting and expectations around how they deliver their work. And it's one thing if they're clear and agreed on, some of them can't be agreed on. Like, you're not going to, you know, that's not the role of a judge just to get your agreement, right.
[00:10:40] Kathleen: So we've gotta be really clear about the scope of what we're talking about. We're talking about where there is opportunity, right? Which is in most of all those other scenarios because the risk is, is where they're unspoken or unrealistic or imposed. And I think that's where, when we think about so many of the issues that a lawyers are dealing with, with burnout and overwork and overwhelm, and that feeling of constantly being on a hamster wheel, that they can't get off.
[00:11:08] Kathleen: They're just going round and round and round in circles. With this feeling that they're constantly falling short, right? Because no matter what they do, they can't meet perhaps the expectations that others are placing on them or that they perceive that others are placing on them. They're in fact imposing on themselves too.
[00:11:30] Kathleen: Right. And so, you know, it's interesting to think about when you and I. Gathered and was thinking about everything that we'd been learning and continue to learn around coaching and positive psychology, and then the experience of lawyers, which I brought to the table in this. One of the first things that we did was look at the research around like, why are so many lawyers languishing instead of thriving?
[00:11:59] Kathleen: And we did see all of those things that we just. Talked about, come up in the research over and over again, multiple studies from the US to Australia International associations. It's this issue of constant expectations, the billables, the deadlines, the pressures, the clients expecting, those instant responses.
[00:12:20] Kathleen: And you know, the fact that when we internalize these expectations, we can really feel like we're just not good enough, that we're behind, that we're somehow failing, and we feel guilty. Does that make sense, Cole? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.
[00:12:38] Carla: Yeah. Because when we're acting from expectations, right? Like, and then those expectations are un met, there is disappointment, right?
[00:12:46] Carla: Resentment, and especially if we believe that we need to met those expectations span of our, the assumption that we create for ourselves, which a lot of the times becomes a bit with the what is expected of you. And we don't go like, well, was that realistic? Yeah. And, and, and it takes a, a minute, right? Like, like it takes a minute to go and say, all right, well, what is possible here for both, for the, with yourself and for the team?
[00:13:18] Carla: You know how I want this person to do that? Well, let me go about like, well, well, how do, how do I go about here to create that agreement in one that the person feels commit to, committed to that as well. And, and yeah. And it takes a minute, I think, to go into exploring that. And maybe we can go into, to the, the role of, uh, the listening aspect of it.
[00:13:44] Carla: I listening, it's the heart of what moves from expectation towards agreement. Like it's not only just, well, most definitely when you are going with a, with another person when you are trying to create an agreement with a coworker, right. It's listening to the capacity, to the constraints. What really matters, you know, and how do you co-create an agreement that is clear, that has chances of working for, for both of you?
[00:14:13] Carla: Like, oh, I'm, this is my expectation. I'm Kathleen. I want to work, you know, three days a week. 'cause that possible. Then I go, Hey, well, what is possible for us to get those things done? Maybe it's not gonna be Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, may understand your capacity and my capacity and then create a thing to move forward.
[00:14:30] Carla: Sometimes we don't know. It's like that. Our fuzzy goals, we know like we want, we are trying to go in that direction. But how we are going to get there? We need to walk along with somebody else and we've gotta understand their reality as well. And our
[00:14:45] Kathleen: own. And our own. Yeah. And I think that that's a real, like when I think of all the times where I've got this wrong, sometimes it was in a hurry of like perhaps, you know, my own thing was wanting to please that was, it's always been an issue for me.
[00:15:00] Kathleen: So would take on things and just agree and say yes and. I not have those conversations to really clarify. So it ended up that then somebody else had an expectation of me. I had an expectation of myself, of what I would do that wasn't necessarily realistic, that once I'd kind of unpacked the task more, oh, it's actually gonna take me two or three times longer than I'd anticipated, but now I've committed to it and I've got four other things on the list to do as well.
[00:15:32] Kathleen: Right. It's just the classic kind of example. Whereas if I'd have really, I've, you know, taken the time perhaps before the conversation to clarify what was involved. Then with the other person, perhaps have those discussions, ask those questions, find out more. I could have potentially, you know, I'm sure it still would've happened.
[00:15:52] Kathleen: These things are not about perfection, but maybe I could have avoided some of that stress that came as a result of that.
[00:16:00] Carla: Yeah. But sometimes as well, like we're, the environment is really busy. There's lots of things going on, and, but as you shared, there's this. Strong assumption here that I've gotta please this person.
[00:16:11] Carla: I want to do well for the, and that is taking over the driving and becoming the default mold. Yeah.
[00:16:19] Kathleen: And unfortunately then you, I created a cycle, right? Because certain people knew what could be delivered then, and then that became the baseline expectation.
[00:16:29] Carla: Yeah, absolutely. We sometimes we get caught up in these feedback loops that we reinforce them with our, Hmm.
[00:16:36] Carla: I mean, no one is, it's the unintended consequences of some of those behaviors. Of course, you don't wanna be in the side, but sometimes we don't even know that we are there. That ability to pause and say, oh, actually, well you're, you're very self-reflective, so you can pinpoint, or, this thing here about pleasing was running the show.
[00:16:54] Kathleen: But for a long time years, I wasn't aware of it. It was only when a senior manager, who's also now a good friend of mine, noticed it and told me that she's watched me do that for years.
[00:17:07] Kathleen: And like you, that you had access to those resources. A lot of the times it's like, it's so strong that we believe. That way of thinking is the reality we, well, I just thought it was
[00:17:17] Kathleen: natural.
[00:17:18] Kathleen: I just thought that that's what doing a good job and being a good lawyer was I had no conception. That maybe there was a certain behavior going on there that wasn't helpful. No awareness for a long time. Yeah.
[00:17:33] Kathleen: So then where do we go from here, Carla? Because you know, as I sort of said, what I'm hearing from this conversation. So much around the importance of listening in this whole picture.
[00:17:50] Carla: Yeah. So listening is really important, right? 'cause the ability like to listen deeply, to clarify, to negotiate, and then commit to what is possible, right?
[00:18:01] Carla: And that applies with others, but also with ourselves as we are talking about the essential, like you are in a dialogue. What assumptions is driving some of the responses, you know, and sometimes like we do need to be able to ask for feedback, like what's in your case, helping us. But it's really about setting realistic expectations right in the first place and really understanding what is possible.
[00:18:28] Carla: So if you find yourself that you are driven by unclear, unspoken expectation, it's worth pausing and saying, what's getting in the way here? What is getting in the way of me setting like a clear agreement? What assumptions am I making that I haven't checked yet? Because it is like that. We've been talking a lot about the self-reflection, right?
[00:18:53] Carla: Like the ability to reflect, to understand some of our patterns and ways of thinking, right? The learned behaviors. And I think another point that is really worth mentioning is that. Agreements are ongoing, right? We sometimes create an agreement and they're clear and we are moving forward, but things change.
[00:19:17] Carla: Excellent. It's about communicating when the things shift, we, we do a lot of that and, and the thriving lawyer with our own realities as well, like in the things that that is, you know, 'cause life happens. Okay. The stake on expected attendance and the clients change their mind. That happens a lot of sometimes as well, right?
[00:19:37] Kathleen: Yeah. And for like when we think about you and I and the thriving lawyer, I've got a busy legal career as well. I'm at uni. You are at uni. You've got family too. We've gotta constantly have those discussions in terms of what we agree. Yeah. And that I love the questions that you've been asking, starting about what is possible because it does really frame the conversation in a helpful way rather than the unspoken, like, you know, otherwise, my tendency would be to simply over commit on things that I can't, targets I can't meet because of just time, like reality, basic physics time, when the cost is there, right?
[00:20:19] Kathleen: It's our wellbeing. And then, and then we would be hypocrites because that's the whole thing about what we're doing at the thriving layer, right?
[00:20:26] Carla: Yeah, absolutely. And, and, and more and more, I mean, I know in the thriving layer I'm getting to this, that we cannot predict to the future. Like we create agreements, it's our best.
[00:20:37] Carla: You confirmation mention what it is, things merge and things take a different turn and then we come back and that, and that is really important as well. It is as things are emerging. How do we adjust the agreements now with this reality? What is possible then? And sometimes it is to shift a bit the goal, right?
[00:20:59] Carla: Sometimes it is to take a different approach because that opens up to creativity. That opens up to like, okay, what? But the listening, the ability to, the creating the relationship and the trust to be able to have those conversations. They coming to the points like, oh look. It's outside my control. I couldn't have predicted getting sick, for example.
[00:21:22] Kathleen: Yeah. So I suppose then like thinking about, well, how, how does, how do our lawyer listeners apply this? It's exactly what you just said, cl. It's all about that clarity and it's all about clarity and coming back together and checking in and changing it. So. Okay, here's what I can commit to in terms of writing that advice by Monday, but for all those other matters for the rest, can we agree on Wednesday?
[00:21:51] Kathleen: Now, obviously the, you know, I think sometimes a junior lawyer might say, but I've got a partner who has expectations, and I don't get that much of a say, but it's actually really important when you're a junior, like when I think about the lawyers that I work with. And the, particularly the the junior lawyers, I really want them to tell, because I might not know if someone else has given them work or if, or what their capacity is at any particular time, like whether something's become more urgent.
[00:22:20] Kathleen: I need them to communicate with me all that time. And if I don't have that, if conversation and I'm not listening for that or asking about it, then, then we are not really in a great place because again, it's going unsaid those expectations.
[00:22:36] Carla: Um, and it's very important to set the stage for those expectations to be able to be clear too, right?
[00:22:41] Carla: Because sometimes we tend to think, oh, I have a lot on my plate. Nothing in front of you might not know what you have in your plate.
[00:22:48] Kathleen: Yeah. It's not about, I think there's a fear here. Oh, like that the, the person that I talked to you about before who was imposing her ideas of a higher performance expectation, she would've, I'm sure, been afraid, perhaps, that if she didn't do that.
[00:23:04] Kathleen: There wouldn't be clarity and therefore you'd be risking a non-high performance culture. But I think if you, if you want a healthy culture, it's actually the opposite of the agreement's. Not about, oh, it's okay if you don't do much.
[00:23:22] Speaker 13: Mm,
[00:23:22] Speaker 12: no. That's not what we're talking about. Yeah. At all. But we're just talking about making sure that there's ownership and clarity and agreement.
[00:23:34] Speaker 13: Absolutely. And look, and I and I, I like to think, you know, I come from this sort of positive, I assume positive intent. I like to think that that lady really want to create a high performing. She Oh, I have no doubt.
[00:23:48] Speaker 12: I
[00:23:48] Speaker 13: have no doubt that's what she wanted to do. She was, she might not marry how to go about it, right?
[00:23:52] Speaker 13: Like she maybe come from the assumption, if I share this is enough, people will get it and they will run with it. I mean,
[00:24:01] Speaker 12: but like this woman I know, she had incredibly high expectations of herself. Yeah. And so that's what she was simply doing to others, what she did to herself, which is often the case,
[00:24:12] Speaker 13: right?
[00:24:13] Speaker 13: Yeah. Which is often the case, which, yeah. Such an important point. Like the agreements we make with ourselves, especially for the, under this sort of harsh self expectations. Sometimes we, we are not aware, right? I like watch for should I should always be available or must I must never make mistakes. Yes.
[00:24:38] Speaker 13: Yeah. I have to hit the same possible standard. And if these expectations like are there, and they usually like, they serve a purpose at some point in time, like, you know, when they're under pressure, we tend. To bring those things together, work done. But like, if this becomes the norm, and this is how you go about your life, like it's, it's important to bring more, you know, self-compassion and to create agreements.
[00:25:07] Speaker 13: Ani would be values
[00:25:09] Speaker 12: as relevant in our personal lives, right? With, with the important people in our life, whether it's parents, siblings, partner, you know, or friends, children. All I imagine. Yeah, absolutely. Because you know, when we simply have those expectations in that con context, our relationships are probably likely to suffer when we have those agreements.
[00:25:36] Speaker 12: I suppose it's then when you're able to really build much more trust
[00:25:42] Speaker 13: and respect. Yeah, because sometimes we, if we don't have the agreements and we're, you know, the relationship is based on those expectations. Sometimes we get caught in, in those loops and we re like, and how we approach our, our expectation, actually reinforce those.
[00:25:59] Speaker 13: But I don't like watch if there is relationships that are not quite going well, this tension, it's a great opportunity to come and say, well, what, what about that? What expectations do I have about this relationship here?
[00:26:18] Speaker 12: Yes. Probably a good spot here to maybe just wind up. We've covered so much ground. If I have to reflect on what I've learned from this discussion, it would be a really good reminder of the fact that expectations when not made clear or you know, not, not. Agreed to. Like what? When they're not spoken about, when they're assumptions, they're easy, but they can be very destructive and agreements as lawyers would know from having to draft them.
[00:27:00] Speaker 12: They do take a lot of effort upfront, and then they're only as good as their. Used. So I have seen in my time in legal practice, many, many occasions where we like the legal team, my colleagues in the contract area, sometimes myself, when I did a little bit of that work early on, we'd spend all this time drafting the terms and conditions of the particular agreement, and then the client, the other party would sign the contract and then the contract would be in the draw.
[00:27:36] Speaker 12: And nobody managed the terms and conditions properly, right? And it was just sitting there and then a big problem emerged later down the truck. And then everybody was scrambling to figure out what you could do when it could have been avoided by a little bit of effective management of the contract to make sure that its terms were being implemented as it went.
[00:27:59] Speaker 12: And if there was a really big issue or something that came up. Well, when, when it was a small issue, thinking about do we need to renegotiate the agreement? Do we need a variation of some kind? If that didn't happen, then you have some kind of disaster. And then we are looking at termination rights and breach of contract kind of claims.
[00:28:18] Speaker 12: Maybe I'm taking that analogy too far, but I think it's pretty powerful because the pollute is manage your agreements. Don't just make them and forget about them.
[00:28:27] Carla: No, it's a beautiful reflection. I love how you brought it into like. And the, the agreement, right? Yeah. And, and the ability that the things are emerging, like how do you manage and creating agreements is, is not a one-off conversation, it's an ongoing conversation.
[00:28:41] Carla: Right? And especially like us, things are emerging, like noticing what, where does it need to be adjusted? Um, yeah. And, and for me, the, my biggest like, um, I guess my takeaway here, it's about practice, right? Like, and it's not about perfectly eliminating expectations because. They there problem. Right. They often, unconsciously.
[00:29:05] Kathleen: Yep.
[00:29:05] Carla: But, and I guess one aspect of it is the practice in noticing, am I operating for unchecked expectations right now? Or slowing down enough to ask what agreement do I want to create here with this person, with myself? And, and mindfulness plays a big role here, right? Without presence. We don't even notice when we've slipped back into the expectation mode.
[00:29:32] Carla: Right. And mindfulness, sort of the practice of pausing, noticing, and that gives us the ability to choose how do I want to respond and give ourself space? Right? We've been talking a lot about space, space to create real agreements that work and we're gonna explore mindfulness a lot more details, and, and this links very, very much what.
[00:29:56] Carla: To creating agreements and managing agreements as well. Like especially when life change things shift and, and we give ourselves permission to Yeah. Change so that so bad we avoid everything that we've been talking about is the languishing, the burnouts, right?
[00:30:16] Speaker 12: Yeah. And enable the opposite, which is thriving, which is ultimately what we're all about.
[00:30:21] Speaker 12: So on that note, Carla, thank you for this discussion and I look forward to our next podcast. So thank you.
[00:30:28] Kathleen: Thank you so much for listening to this episode of the thriving lawyer with Kathleen Brenner and Carla Ferraz, if you like it, please share it with your lawyer friends and colleagues, and tag us on Instagram at @thriving lawyer or on LinkedIn via the links in the show notes. And if you liked what you heard, please drop a review in apple podcasts.
[00:30:50] Kathleen: It really helps spread the word.
[00:30:53] Kathleen: If you'd like to work with us, check out our free resources and our signature course, the thriving lawyer which you will find at www.thrivinglawyer.com.au. You can also download our free guide, the lawyer's guide to thriving: a sustainable roadmap for success.
[00:31:14] Kathleen: It's filled with great tips and ideas so that you can begin to make real change. You'll find the link to that in our show notes.
[00:31:22] Kathleen: We hope this podcast has given you massive value. And that you can use it to begin to create your own thriving life. A life where you can thrive as a lawyer. And in the rest of your life.
