Farhana & Kathleen - Thriving Lawyer podcast interview
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[00:00:00] Kathleen: You are listening to The Thriving Lawyer With Kathleen Brenner and Carla Ferraz. I'm Kathleen, a highly experienced lawyer and an International Coaching Federation accredited coach.
[00:00:12] Carla: And I am Carla. Like Kathleen, I am an ICF certified coach and I have worked with top leaders and professionals, many of them lawyers, at some of the world's biggest organizations.
[00:00:25] Carla: My focus is on using evidence based approaches to help my clients thrive at work and in the rest of their lives. Together,
[00:00:34] Kathleen: we bring you the Thriving Lawyer podcast, a podcast filled with ideas and inspiration, as well as practical tips to help you thrive as a lawyer and in the rest of your
[00:00:47] Kathleen: life. Let's get into it.
[00:00:53] Kathleen: Welcome to the Thriving Lawyer Podcast with Kathleen Brenner. And this time I'm without my co-host Carla, but I'm very excited. I've got a guest today who's not only a fellow lawyer, but also a new friend of mine, and that is Farhana Islam. Now Farhana is a strategic legal advisor with more than 20 years experience in privacy governance and regulatory law.
[00:01:18] Kathleen: She's worked across a whole lot of senior roles in the Australian government and private practice, and most recently guiding major digital data and technology initiatives with a focus on integrity and public purpose. So with a background in both law and medical science, she brings a distinctive lens to AI data ethics and public sector innovation.
[00:01:40] Kathleen: But she's equally passionate about simplifying complex ideas, building capability in others, and helping leaders make confident, ethical decisions. So welcome.
[00:01:52] Farhana: Thank you, Kathleen. It's a pleasure to be here.
[00:01:55] Kathleen: It's really wonderful to help to have you, and I probably should have said straight up before I even launched into that little intro that today, there's so many topics that I could probably talk to you about that would be of interest to our audience.
[00:02:08] Kathleen: But today I wanted to talk a little bit about something different and when you and I were meeting over coffee and you talked about having been on a sabbatical and in fact you were still on it when we had that conversation, it really sparked my interest because as I've been doing more and more of this thriving lawyer work, I'm becoming really interested in all the different kinds of ways that lawyers can take time out, can work to create their own kind of career that works for them, reflect on what it is they really want.
[00:02:41] Kathleen: And it seemed to me that a sabbatical could be a really powerful way to do that. Does that resonate with you?
[00:02:50] Farhana: It does. Do you like me to give you a little bit of how I got here?
[00:02:53] Farhana: Yeah, why not? Look, um, if I could sum up my career in a sentence, I would say didn't want to be a lawyer, but somehow I found myself be a corporate lawyer and enjoying it.
[00:03:05] Farhana: But then I had that persistent thought of, what next is this it? So let me backtrack a little bit. As you mentioned, I started out doing medical science and law. So law was my add-on. I wanna be a lawyer. I wanted to do medicine didn't quite make the mark to get in at the time. A lot of, uh, medical degrees were now moving to poison.
[00:03:26] Farhana: So I thought, oh, I'll just do law 'cause I could do it. So I had an interest in social justice that I didn't see myself as. But once I started studying, I found that actually this calls to me, whereas my counterparts were dropping out of law school. I was like. Really interested in it. It played to my strengths, but I still did see myself as a lawyer.
[00:03:46] Farhana: The come end of uni, I decided, oh, what next? I thought I'd go into policy making. So I joined as a graduate in public service, the Department of Health, obvious reasons. There were synergies with the medical staff and health, et cetera. My interests with all. Policy officer having no idea what a policy officer really did, but working on some really interesting project.
[00:04:09] Farhana: I then had the opportunity to work with some lawyers when they found out the, had a legal background in project I was doing. Oh, Hannah, why did you come and work with us in the legal stream? So I made the change. I a job, went into the legal stream again, found I actually loved it because I felt like I was meeting objectives, et cetera.
[00:04:26] Farhana: It was a fun space to play in for a long time. The government agency covered a breadth of work in house know you intend to do when you're in house. And again, I had this. And almost 10 years, nine years ago, I, I was at that stage thinking, what next? In that career, I loved working for a single agency to get exposure to more clients and other types of work.
[00:04:52] Farhana: So I reached out to my former chief counsel who had made the interesting decision. That's part of his retirement. To go from the public sector to the private sector instead of retirement which we all thought was interesting. Like you, you're nodding your head, Kathleen. We all thought that was an interesting transition out to him just to say, Hey would you be willing to be a referee?
[00:05:13] Farhana: I'm picking out potentially other opportunities. He reached out and said, well, why don't you come and work with me? So that's how I got into the private sector.
[00:05:21] Farhana: That was almost 10 years ago. So in 2016.
[00:05:24] Farhana: I enjoyed that work. And there's all the pressures that come with the, there's a challenging work. There's, you know, establishing yourself in a new environment.
[00:05:33] Farhana: Maybe about two years ago I was thinking about I, oh, what next?
[00:05:39] Farhana: I've now learned this. There's something called the seven year itch. I know a lot of people apply to relationships, et cetera, but it's also in career circles as well. I know a lot of HR professors talk about the seven year itch when people are about stagnation, career growth.
[00:05:57] Farhana: And that time I was like, oh, what do I wanna do next? Do I wanna pursue corporate world and pursue being partner? Is that what I see myself as? Do I go back to in-house? Do I wanna do something totally different? It was all those, concepts running around in my head.
[00:06:12] Farhana: But what spurred me to action was really going through a difficult health challenge. Last year I was diagnosed with ovarian cancer. Now just one whole story here just to say. I'm doing well. It's 12 months on post-treatment, doing really well. And I was talking to a, a friend about what I've been doing since I've was diagnosed and I said, yeah, I'm surviving.
[00:06:35] Farhana: And she said you're thriving.
[00:06:37] Farhana: There's nothing like a health scare just spur you to really think about what is important to you. My team, when I was working was fantastic. They helped me navigate the challenge of the working while I was going through treatment.
[00:06:51] Farhana: Fantastic. But there was still that persistent thought, what's next? What am I gonna do? And ultimately I came to the view that a sabbatical would help me really have that space to think.
[00:07:07] Farhana: I've always been one of those people who thinks creatively comes up with solutions when I'm not thinking about the problem head on.
[00:07:14] Farhana: So often the way. Yeah, exactly.
[00:07:17] Farhana: So, and if you are, I know you've got listeners here, so they're into podcasts. One of my favorite podcasts is The Hidden Brain, and they talk about the science behind this, et cetera. So. It was essentially something that come at a point in my career. I was quite senior now, again in the corporate world.
[00:07:34] Farhana: I decided to resign from that job, so I had the pure clarity. And it wasn't, I wasn't intending to have a really long, it was literally to be three months, et cetera. So that's how I got to taking this.
[00:07:48] Farhana: So that was like le leave, un paid leave at that point. Was the, the, the sabbatical resigned. I resigned from that. Oh, you resigned. Okay. Yeah, I resigned and I know that's a big step.
[00:08:00] Farhana: So I very much thought about a long time and moved on and so that's how I got to into a sabbatical.
[00:08:07] Farhana: This head space, health concerns, made a decision. This will help me come to terms with what next.
[00:08:14] Kathleen: Yeah. Okay. So it sounds like you'd got to a certain point in the career.
[00:08:22] Kathleen: Successful in a lot of ways. You know, it's not like you're unhappy with it, right? No, no. Exactly. That things are going pretty well. Yeah.
[00:08:28] Farhana: I'm very proud of the things I've managed to do in the time that I moved from public to private. Yeah, it was, it wasn't, like I said, it was no burning, like, oh my God, I hate this.
[00:08:36] Farhana: With a passion within, it was more about what next I'm one of my key values. I know you've talked about on the podcast about character, strengths and values and actions. So one of my key values is. Appreciation of beauty and excellence. So that value of excellence is really important to me, and that comes out in excellence, work.
[00:08:55] Farhana: That was for me a way to hone in on that as well.
[00:08:59] Kathleen: So with, with that in mind, you know, it sounds like. This isn't, I think it happens, you know, I talk to a lot of women particularly, but I mean men, all lawyers, but I think like particularly for women at our age you're getting into a new kind of stage. You've got a certain level of seniority.
[00:09:18] Kathleen: I think it does spark often these kind of thoughts about, well what about the next stage now? Yeah. We've got here, we've done the hard yards. Yeah. Um.
[00:09:29] Kathleen: We've had a certain level of success then and we've got our whole lives still ahead of us. And maybe, you know, we, but the other hand is just like, also we don't know what is gonna happen.
[00:09:39] Kathleen: Like you had a really powerful That's right. Wake up, call there. I imagine we where, where you don't know what you've got ahead. That's right. So I imagine that that would've, um, potentially also made those questions. More, well, I don't know. Brought them to the fore, let's say
[00:09:59] Farhana: Exactly like it, it's such a cliche thing to say, but whenever someone has a health scare and I'm just, I'm, and I'm look, I was never one of those people when I was diagnosed with cancer.
[00:10:08] Farhana: Why me? Why not me?
[00:10:10] Farhana: But work has always been a big part of my identity. And I get a lot of intrinsic value. But at the same time, it does bring to the fore, like you said, that how you spend your time.
[00:10:23] Farhana: Yeah, that's important . Even if I'm working long hours for purpose or whatever aligned with my values essentially. Yeah, so you're exactly right. It was a natural point to take stock.
[00:10:40] Kathleen: And so you start this sabbatical, you've resigned. Yeah. Now you've got time initially the three months. Yes. Tell me like. Talk to me about like, what it was like even that first Monday morning.
[00:10:53] Farhana: Oh, well, look, I organized, so organized myself to have a little holiday with some friends in Perth.
[00:10:58] Farhana: Oh, wonderful. Okay. First Monday morning. It was great. I would say my sabbatical experience I went into it with some clear goals with what I wanted to achieve.
[00:11:06] Farhana: I also moved from Canberra to Melbourne. So in December. So I'm still relatively new as well, so my goals for the sabbatical was threefold.
[00:11:14] Farhana: First of all, getting into new rhythms in the new city, including building new good habits. So it means in terms of the physical side and the mental side, like making sure, building good habits around that, and the time also to get my creative spark back.
[00:11:31] Farhana: I think I spoke to you about this, Kathleen, before where, you know, I'd be doing all these art classes and doing all sorts of stuff. So doing my sabbatical the first Monday morning, I already organized some time away.
[00:11:42] Farhana: It actually hit me probably a month in like, oh, I have nothing lined up. I you know, there were some questions that came to your mind, like when you go on a sabbatical with nothing else lined up. Especially when someone like me, I've always had something lined up afterwards.
[00:11:58] Kathleen: And I imagine, from what I know of you already, that you're someone who likes to have a lot to do.
[00:12:03] Farhana: Yes, that's right. I have a lot to do, but that's the thing. But it's interesting. I've spoken to other people when I've said, I've gone on sabbatical. They're like, oh my gosh, I dunno what I do. I'm like, oh, I have no problems. I have lots of things I can do. So on my sabbatical and I call a sabbatical and not a career break.
[00:12:16] Farhana: 'cause I was actually intending, intending it to use it for further learning, even in my professional sense. So I, um, I. I giggled because I joined up the equivalent of duolingo but for coding, it's app. Oh wow. So I'm waiting to Python code, you know, I mean privacy data lawyer. I felt like I should know some of the basics.
[00:12:37] Farhana: And when COVID happened, I'd joined up the Harvard course on Give it the Science for Lawyers, like getting down to the nuts and bolts. So I actually had some learning stuff attached to it. Again, I thought it was important actually on the sabbatical to set some parameters because otherwise, as you know, sometimes if when you feel like you have so much time, you should never actually get anything done.
[00:12:59] Farhana: Yeah. So for me, I knew I needed a little bit of structure, not too much, not like everything regimented, but I tried to make sure I did something physical every day. I'm an extrovert, so, uh, so work was a social kind of place for me.
[00:13:14] Farhana: So every day I'd make sure I'd talk to different people. But I really didn't think too hard about what next in terms of career for at least the first month I focused on, all those other things reading the books i've always meant to read.
[00:13:30] Farhana: So yeah, I think it was important for me to have a little bit of structure around my time, otherwise I know what would happen. It's like when you have long holidays and outta three just disappears.
[00:13:43] Kathleen: Yeah, so you know, what you're saying actually really fits with the way Carla and I have structured the thriving lawyer and a lot of what we've, which we, based on what we had learned about the science of goal setting.
[00:13:56] Kathleen: Mm-hmm. Because it sounds to me like if I put it in the language that I use in the coaching psychology and positive psychology world, what you did is you kind of had a high level kind of fuzzy goal that wasn't really defined well. Mm-hmm. But there was enough in it that you could kind of see what you wanted to get out of the time at a really, that's right.
[00:14:16] Kathleen: Really high level.
[00:14:18] Kathleen: Mm-hmm. But you hadn't gone into like, I'm going to do X, Y, Z and, I'm gonna do it this way and that way, and I'm gonna fill up every day in a way. Which, if you'd have, if you'd have done all of those, really kind of low level goals at the beginning, you probably would've cut off a lot of possibility.
[00:14:36] Farhana: Yeah. And, and I gave myself permission to look, I'd read books about career setting, like I spent the time doing that deep dive into myself, which is always, well I find it can be challenging at times as well, even though you think you know yourself well. But doing that deep dive. But I also wanted my brain just to have that freedom to just play in some ways as well.
[00:14:56] Farhana: And that's. Yeah, what I use the time for during my sabbatical.
[00:15:01] Kathleen: So how did it go? Like, 'cause you talked about, you know, that, that beginning and initially three months. Yeah. But then it kept going, am I right?
[00:15:07] Farhana: So in those three months I didn't get exact clarity about what next. But what I did, like, I, I did work out some important things about myself in that time, I always knew, but it, it was that I like interesting work and interesting is a subjective word.
[00:15:24] Farhana: People have different. Concepts of what's interesting, but challenging, interesting work is something important to me.
[00:15:29] Farhana: But also I honed in on in whatever role, long-term role I take up next, what I really want to focus on is the amount of impact I'll have.
[00:15:42] Farhana: So what I mean by that is across three domains, impact in terms of the work itself, and that's why I've always loved Commonwealth government work, for example. 'cause I see the public purpose and the value and I feel may like, it's really great being involved in this work,
[00:15:57] Farhana: and the impact in terms of the profession. Now this is loftier bit of a loftier kind of outcome I'm thinking of, but it's honing, uh, about those sides of me, which is more than the legal advisors, the mentoring role I've always remembered. When I finished up at the government department after almost 10 years there, one of my key clients came to see me. She herself was also from a sub Continental background and she basically said that it was, the summation of her words was, it was really good to see someone like myself,
[00:16:30] Farhana: and I, at the time, I never seen myself as a leader like I was in leadership positions, but I never saw myself as a leader. And something I think about now as well, you don't have to be the top of the food chain to be the leader.
[00:16:40] Farhana: You can be leader in lots of things. But that last one impact on the profession is, goes into that thinking now.
[00:16:48] Farhana: So I can start this conversation. I dunno where I'm off to next, but these are the three things I wanna work on in terms of impact. And that can be in the setting of going down back into, could be in-house, in public or in the private sector, or not-for-profit.
[00:17:05] Farhana: My three months turned out to be five months because I, while I was still thinking this out, I decided, yep, I'm ready to go back to work. So I was missing the intellectual rigor and challenge of it all and I thought, I've got it all worked out.
[00:17:17] Farhana: I haven't found the perfect job that matches those things yet for some opportunities. But, you know, discussions at that level didn't pan out, but I wanted to get back onto it. So I, I basically took on a contractor role.
[00:17:33] Kathleen: So in effect, I ended up having a five months sabbatical. Yeah. Yeah. There's something I'd just like to pick up on there, right? Because often say in coaching, you'll get people and they might come to you with this idea, right? Of like a specific job or a, you know? Yeah. You don't wanna have X job at Y company in Z timeframe frame, right?
[00:17:56] Kathleen: Yeah. And one of the things that'll immediately come to mind as a coach is, ah, that's not in their control, right? Mm. And so knowing where to go, like there is so much in terms of like what job comes up where mm-hmm. It's kind of luck and whether another person gives you a job is something that you don't have any control over.
[00:18:15] Kathleen: Exactly. But what I'm hearing is like, does you saying like, oh, I don't know, like the ultimate next step or like where I'm going, but what I'm hearing strongly. Is like really big clarity on what's important to you. 'cause you outlined it in three areas like so powerfully.
[00:18:30] Kathleen: So in some ways, like am I right that it doesn't really matter in some ways where you go, particularly if you are able to have the impact in those three areas?
[00:18:40] Farhana: Exactly. That's exactly right.
[00:18:42] Farhana: To me, it's really about how my time brings value and my expertise, et cetera. And the reason that I think like this, it goes back to some advice. This is some advice, you know, people give you some advice and advice that stick in your mind forever.
[00:18:55] Farhana: Yeah. So I started this conversation by saying I wanted to be a doctor. Yes. 11. I went to a careers fair and there was a careers guidance person there. And she, they asked me, what do you wanna do? I said, oh, I want to be a doctor. And they're like, why do you wanna be a doctor? And I said, I wanna help people.
[00:19:10] Farhana: And also. And she looked me dead in the eyes and said, you can help people in other ways. And that's always stuck with me. Because that's going back to what's your why? So my why is helping others, but you can help others in different ways.
[00:19:24] Kathleen: I think that there's a lot of value in that and I, you know, if, if there's one thing that our audience can take away of that shift in, in kind of thinking, because I think sometimes we can put so much pressure on ourselves, particularly lawyers, right?
[00:19:37] Farhana: Because there's been a very traditional story about the narrative path that you need to follow in order to be, you know, in quotes, successful. That's actually just not true at all anymore either. That's right. But you know what you say, it's something I had to grapple with. What does success look like as someone who's, you know, did well at school, which was all based on external validation.
[00:20:00] Farhana: And then you go into a law firm, what's the best in a law firm? What's the success you get to the top of the food chain, et cetera. Um, there's still elements of that, but I had to really think about that. Success. For me, no success for me is where I could, or where I can, impact certain things.
[00:20:19] Kathleen: I relate to what you said too, because I think I went through the same thing probably around the pandemic in terms of the rethink. So I didn't have the sabbatical, but I had like, I think that extra time where I was stuck in, I was already in Melbourne at that time 'cause that's my hometown.
[00:20:36] Farhana: I'd moved back in 2017 from Canberra and then suddenly for months not being able to go, you know, beyond your block. It probably had a bit of a similar impact in terms of the rethink . Yeah. And look, that's we can talk about this later about, people's voice to go sabbatical or, or not sabbatical, but I would say taking a sabbatical was not without its challenges.
[00:20:59] Farhana: I feel like I was in a privileged position in some ways 'cause I wasn't worried about it. Now that was because I did set up my financials.
[00:21:07] Farhana: But your point about, you know, as lawyers and what success looks at that was important. That was an issue for me because of the, I feared the stigma of it all. Like, uh, you know, what would recruiters say about this gap?
[00:21:24] Farhana: Some she had falling out. Did her ex like firm not like it? You know, all those things. The perception of am I gonna be left behind? I was in a trajectory and then, you know, that is it gonna be stalled? So there was that fear, like there was that fear a little bit in the background.
[00:21:38] Farhana: But I, I had, faith in myself, even if I needed just to pay the bills.
[00:21:42] Farhana: I think the fears or like identity shock. Like if I'm not a lawyer, who am I? If I'm not producing, I'm, I've always been used to producing stuff. So if I'm not doing something, what am I doing? Am I using my time valuably?
[00:21:56] Kathleen: Um, so did you answer to that question change?
[00:22:01] Farhana: Yeah, actually I think I just, it was just coming back. It's like, no, no, you have to remember why you're taking this .
[00:22:06] Farhana: One of the other reasons I took it was, unfortunately my parents are unwell. So it gave me time and freedom to be there when they needed me.
[00:22:13] Kathleen: With all of that in mind, is there anything that you wanna add to that picture in terms of, say, like the benefit that you got from it or any other particular challenges or things that, that kind of come up? May, maybe we've covered it, but maybe there's something Yeah, no, I'm just saying that, look, I'm glad I did it.
[00:22:37] Farhana: I'm glad I did it. I think I needed to do it.
[00:22:41] Farhana: Didn't result in a, like I said, a hundred percent clarity of next steps, but gave me some clarity and I'm still working it out. It did give me time and I did get those goals like the, putting in the good habits.
[00:22:57] Farhana: . So I think it was valuable for me. I hit the goals I wanted to in terms of the creativity, in terms of setting up myself up in a new city and all that. I guess some things I would say is make sure you have a clear story.
[00:23:14] Farhana: I think for me it was like the story I would tell people when you meet someone new and they're like, oh, what do you do for work? You're like, I don't wanna be that person that says up between jobs.
[00:23:24] Farhana: And then for me, I was actually no, take ownership, but I'm on a sabbatical.
[00:23:27] Farhana: Being able to articulate that as it's for the purpose of me figuring out my next long-term position.
[00:23:35] Farhana: And as I always said to people, I'm privileged that I could do it because I didn't, um, I dealt with the financial stuff and I was in a position to do so.
[00:23:46] Kathleen: So, I mean, that's obviously of crucial importance because you can't do it if you can't support yourself. Right? Yeah. You don't want, there is an element of privilege, preparation, hard work, all of those Exactly. Things is a package that goes together. So if, assuming that a lawyer can manage that side,
[00:24:02] Kathleen: is there any kind of other things you'd say to a lawyer if they may be thinking about this?
[00:24:10] Farhana: What. I didn't think about too much at the time, but I will say this, if someone came to me now, I'd be very clear on your why you wanna do it. Um, and so that's either sabbatical in, just the usual unpaid leave from your work.
[00:24:26] Farhana: Um. Or something else. Why do you wanna do it? If it's to run away from some issue at work, I don't necessarily think that's the best way. 'cause the issue might still be there and you should really give your organization the benefit to work with. What I mean though, that, you know, like, ugh, I'm just tired of the work.
[00:24:44] Farhana: So I wouldn't use it as a way to just fully escape unless, you know, for mental health reasons.
[00:24:50] Farhana: So be really clear on your purpose and how you're gonna reenter the workforce. The position. I think that's something. So I, like I said, I'd already set myself up to keep abreast of the changes in the space I was working on, especially after I gave myself a good six weeks of just play and whatever, and then scheduled in all the other things.
[00:25:12] Farhana: But having that reentry plan. So including terms of, if you took, like I did sabbatical to. Develop those other good habits in terms of physical wellness, et cetera. How you gonna maintain it when you go back?
[00:25:26] Farhana: Every time there's a change in routine, you have to come up with a new plan to stick with the routine.
[00:25:31] Farhana: And I think I would say I feel like the concept of sabbaticals. Especially the legal profession has been really limited to, you know, the senior partners or those partners who go on sabbatical after years. Yes, you have long service leave.
[00:25:48] Farhana: But sometimes I've seen with long service leave, people chunk it up. You know, they take two weeks long service here, two weeks,
[00:25:54] Farhana: I think having those conversations because was something I've reflected on recently as well as someone who's childless not by choice and being a single person, some of those natural time when you have a break from work, not that I'm saying it's easy, like turn, paternity leave, it's not easy, but that is a break from work and you're focusing on other things and that's a natural sort of way to pause and stuff.
[00:26:15] Farhana: So that's not always available to everybody. A sabbatical, I feel is a way to get that, break and that mental clarity for others. Really talk about it with your leaders if it's something you're interested in, especially if you are not sure you wanna take the next step of totally. Taking away your safety blanket, not having a job to come back to.
[00:26:36] Farhana: Uh, I think it's something you could talk to your bosses or managers, just find out how supportive they would be.
[00:26:43] Farhana: I know it's been easier in the public service. I have lots of friends who did the whole year without paying to go traveling, et cetera. It can be harder in certain sectors.
[00:26:56] Farhana: Yeah. And on the other hand too, if you're a contractor, like, you know, you're just making me think of the opportunities as, yes, well, in between contracts I could deliberately have a break of a few months,
[00:27:07] Farhana: kathleen, it's funny you say that, 'cause now that I've taken on this contract, one of the things I thought, oh, I love traveling.
[00:27:13] Farhana: Maybe the next few things would be, I work three to six months and then I take a three to six months off. But that itself has challenges in. In terms of logistics. Yeah, logistics and et cetera.
[00:27:25] Farhana: But yeah, something, it could be model why, who knows. But I'm taking this phase, I've got my three sort of guiding principles in terms of what I'm looking for a long-term role.
[00:27:34] Kathleen: Yeah. What I'm hearing there is exactly what we learn about in our masters too, which is about this idea that when we start thinking about the actions that we're gonna take to kind of frame them as experiments.
[00:27:47] Kathleen: And then we then when we experiment, we get data. Information is data as you, you are the privacy and the information lawyer here.
[00:27:56] Kathleen: It's all data. And then we adapt to the data and we experiment some more.
[00:28:01] Farhana: It sounds like that's the spirit. Am I right that you are? You are right. Exactly.
[00:28:05] Farhana: And that's what I took it as. And, but I was, I was comfortable in taking that experiment because I was comfortable. I can pay the bills, I can do this, all that. So that was, I think the big thing, if you are comfortable, you have to feel comfortable.
[00:28:19] Farhana: And I think you have to back yourself. So I back myself that I will get a job. It might not meet all the things I want from a job, but I'll have a job
[00:28:26] Kathleen: well, thank you so much. You've covered so much. I mean, I might give you the floor one final time and say, is there, like, if you wanted to add or if there's a final message maybe to, to share if you could sum it up
[00:28:39] Farhana: It would be, if you were thinking about a sabbatical, I would frame it as not thinking of as a escape from work.
[00:28:45] Farhana: But, but a way to, for the connect with yourself. And if in the work context connect with what you want to do,
[00:28:53] Farhana: Your time is valuable. You know, we all have limited time, so you might as well do something that connects to you. I find that sabbatical's a good way to help you think through that.
[00:29:04] Farhana: You have the space to think through that.
[00:29:07] Kathleen: Well, that's probably a very beautiful spot to finish. If the audience wanna find you or connect with you how can they go about that?
[00:29:16] Farhana: I'm on LinkedIn, which I'm, I'm on LinkedIn. If you on LinkedIn, please add me. Um, or send me a message if you, anything I've said resonated with you. I know when I've said, shared my cancer story, people have reached out to me.
[00:29:29] Farhana: I'm happy to talk about the challenges through that as well. I think times, it's helpful for others to connect with someone who's gone through the experience,
[00:29:38] Kathleen: We'll put the link in the show notes Awesome. So that people can find you directly.
[00:29:42] Kathleen: Thank you so much for, for agreeing to have this chat with me and being so open with your story too. Really appreciate that. So thank you so much, Farhana.
[00:29:51] Farhana: Well, thank you Kathleen. Thank you for having this forum. It's a, it's a really, it's a really bright podcast and series you're doing to, I think, help lawyers think about.
[00:30:03] Farhana: You know what's what to make your life meaningful.
[00:30:07] Kathleen: Yeah, exactly. Well, it's like, as you said, our time is limited and there's lots of things, and I think it's so easy to just get caught up in the busyness of it all.
[00:30:15] Farhana: Exactly. And that's what I see with so many lawyers, right, too. It's just the demands of our clients, of our work.
[00:30:22] Kathleen: It can be complex. Before you know it. Weeks, months, even years have passed and I think what I want is to see a world where many more lawyers are not being driven by circumstances, but are taking control as, obviously there's a lots not in our control.
[00:30:39] Kathleen: But there is an awful lot that is.
[00:30:41] Farhana: So, thanks Kathleen. My pleasure.
[00:30:44] Kathleen: Thank you so much for listening to this episode of the thriving lawyer with Kathleen Brenner and Carla Ferraz, if you like it, please share it with your lawyer friends and colleagues, and tag us on Instagram at @thriving lawyer or on LinkedIn via the links in the show notes. And if you liked what you heard, please drop a review in apple podcasts.
[00:31:06] Kathleen: It really helps spread the word.
[00:31:09] Kathleen: If you'd like to work with us, check out our free resources and our signature course, the thriving lawyer which you will find at www.thrivinglawyer.com.au. You can also download our free guide, the lawyer's guide to thriving: a sustainable roadmap for success.
[00:31:29] Kathleen: It's filled with great tips and ideas so that you can begin to make real change. You'll find the link to that in our show notes.
[00:31:38] Kathleen: We hope this podcast has given you massive value. And that you can use it to begin to create your own thriving life. A life where you
[00:31:46] Kathleen: can
[00:31:46] Kathleen: thrive as a lawyer. And in the rest of your life.
