Season 3, Episode 1 - Why Lawyers Can’t Switch Off (and what actually helps) - EDITED FINAL EPISODE
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[00:00:00] Kathleen: You are listening to The Thriving Lawyer With Kathleen Brenner and Carla Ferraz. I'm Kathleen, a highly experienced lawyer and an International Coaching Federation accredited coach.
[00:00:12] Carla: And I am Carla. Like Kathleen, I am an ICF certified coach and I have worked with top leaders and professionals, many of them lawyers, at some of the world's biggest organizations.
[00:00:25] Carla: My focus is on using evidence based approaches to help my clients thrive at work and in the rest of their lives. Together,
[00:00:34] Kathleen: we bring you the Thriving Lawyer podcast, a podcast filled with ideas and inspiration, as well as practical tips to help you thrive as a lawyer and in the rest of your
[00:00:47] Kathleen: life. Let's . Into it.
[00:00:52] Kathleen: It's 9:47 PM Your laptop is closed. Technically you're done for the day. Yet your brain is drafting that email that you're gonna send tomorrow. You are replaying that call that you had, right? A few minutes before the end of the day with your client. Maybe you're running those worst case scenarios and somewhere in the background there's that itch.
[00:01:19] Kathleen: You know it, you recognize it. It's to check that inbox. Just one more time. So if that's you. You are not just weak, you are not broken. There's a reason why so many of us lawyers struggle to switch off,
[00:01:36] Carla: and if that landed for you, you are not alone. Today, we'll explore what is happening underneath that always on feeling and why it makes so much sense in the legal world.
[00:01:48] Carla: We'll share a few small practices you can experiment with, not as another thing to perfect, but as a way to begin creating more choices in how you respond to stress. Think of this like less than fixing yourself and much more of developing a new capacity.
[00:02:06] Carla: The capacity to pause, to recover, and to choose your next move.
[00:02:11] Kathleen: So welcome back to the Thriving Lawyer. It's been a little while now. We did have an episode that came out last week that I'd recorded, you know, a few weeks ago. It was actually before Christmas that we've been waiting to put back up when we were ready.
[00:02:26] Kathleen: And that was with a guest, right? We had a guest and we were talking all about sabbaticals. This episode is a little bit different, so we're gonna start with something different, but I have my co-host here, Carla Ferraz, and we're both coaches. I'm also a lawyer, and we sit right at that intersection between the legal profession and the science of thriving.
[00:02:49] Carla: Hello, Kathleen. I'm so happy to be here today. Thank you.
[00:02:53] Kathleen: And so Carla, you and I, when we've put together the Thriving Lawyer, it's really underpinned by a really simple, but really profound belief.
[00:03:07] Kathleen: And that is that a thriving lawyer is a thriving human.
[00:03:11] Kathleen: It underpins everything that we do here. So if you can't switch off, it's not just uncomfortable. It can also potentially affect your performance. It can affect your health and even your relationships.
[00:03:30] Carla: So this episode today is the first one of miniseries that we are building on for 2026 on thriving under real legal pressure.
[00:03:39] Carla: And today's about recovering, it's about the ability to switch off. And the next episode, we are gonna dive deeper into the hyper vigilance loop and why being on top of things can become a trap.
[00:03:51] Carla: So, Kathleen, let's get right into it.
[00:03:54] Kathleen: Okay.
[00:03:55] Kathleen: So I've been a lawyer for a pretty long time and I've seen myself in action over that time. Colleagues, former colleagues, other lawyers in the circle, and what I have seen so often and what I hear from lawyers that I know is that so often we just live in this state of what you could call like a partial oncall.
[00:04:19] Kathleen: So what can happen really easily is that even when we're not working, part of us will scan the environment. Did I miss something? Is there a risk that I didn't cover in my advice? Is someone going to need me? Did I say the wrong thing? Are they gonna misinterpret me in my advice? And the fact is, is that our training as lawyers primes us for this kind of thinking.
[00:04:48] Kathleen: We're trained to think this way.
[00:04:50] Kathleen: Ultimately as lawyers we're rewarded for spotting risks. You wouldn't want a lawyer if she or he or they didn't analyze and notice, and then advise you on the risks that you face.
[00:05:06] Kathleen: You know, it's fundamental. We are rewarded as well for being responsive. We're supposed to be client driven, really thorough in what we do, and we're rewarded for that.
[00:05:18] Kathleen: And we're punished if we're not too. That might be by our colleagues with feedback from our work, or it could be from clients. There is though a very powerful downside to that, and that is that so often our brains don't magically know when it's safe for us to stop. And there's also that environment.
[00:05:37] Kathleen: Work doesn't necessarily end anymore. It can leak depending on your workplace.
[00:05:44] Kathleen: You've got phones, you've got laptops, you've got teams, you've got email. That constant sense that anything could land at any moment. And I would add to that also, that in this post COVID environment in the last five or so years because so many of us now work from home. I work from home virtually all the time. A lot of people have a hybrid environment.
[00:06:08] Kathleen: Those boundaries that we used to have are even more fluid. And even if your workplace is reasonable, you know, I myself now am really lucky that I work in a very positive work environment.
[00:06:22] Kathleen: The pace and the volume can still create that internal pressure, right? That's can just be the reality.
[00:06:30] Kathleen: Even in a really good legal workplace, let alone if you're feeling overwhelmed, there's that constant feeling of, oh, if I stop, I'll fall behind and probably then I'll fail.
[00:06:44] Kathleen: So we've got this mix. You know, we're conditioned professionally. There's often high stakes, like often our advice does matter. There's that expectation potentially of frequent or maybe even constant access and our own internal standards.
[00:07:01] Kathleen: And what that means is, is that it can almost make feeling. If you switch off, you're somehow not fulfilling your duty as a good lawyer, that you're being irresponsible.
[00:07:12] Kathleen: So let's illustrate this with an example. Okay. Um, we love examples of the Thriving Lawyer and we've got plenty of them through to show. How the experience of different lawyers that we see out in the world.
[00:07:26] Kathleen: So let's imagine Emma. So Emma's a senior lawyer. She's really capable and smart. She's well respected by her colleagues and clients, and she genuinely cares about doing a good job.
[00:07:39] Kathleen: It's a normal Tuesday. She's got back-to-back calls for a few hours. There's a matter that she's working on that's moving fast. She has to give advice pretty. Quickly. There's a few key facts that she doesn't really know yet. She's juggling a partner's expectations. A client is calling her and saying that the advice is urgent.
[00:08:02] Kathleen: Plus she's imposing her own standards. I think for a lot of you lawyer listeners, that probably seems like a pretty standard day in our week, right? But then poor Emma, she gets home 7:30 PM By the time, you know, she's worked in the office that day, she's perhaps caught the train back. She eats something quickly.
[00:08:25] Kathleen: Finally, checks her laptop that she's opened. Um, again, because she couldn't resist to do that little bit of extra work for an hour, she closes at 9:00 PM and she tells herself, I'm done. Okay. Few issues there, but then she's on the couch. She's finally going to have a bit of a rest, and her mind starts going again.
[00:08:49] Kathleen: So what's she doing? She's replaying that call that she has with the client. She's thinking about the email and she's wondering, well, was I too blunt? Did I say the wrong thing? She remembers that she didn't answer one email that she received .
[00:09:05] Kathleen: And then she gets this little surge of anxiety and thinks, oh, I'll just quick check.
[00:09:10] Kathleen: I'll just check quickly. And suddenly she's back in her inbox. She's scanning, she's replying. And she's making a mental list of all the things that needs to happen on her Wednesday, and so there goes her relaxation on the couch. By the time she's done that, she thinks she better go brush her teeth and put herself to bed.
[00:09:32] Kathleen: She's really tired. Maybe she's even exhausted. Her mind is still ticking along. She's getting more frustrated with herself because she's thinking, why can't I just switch off Carla? What is your reaction to what I've just said out there?
[00:09:49] Carla: Thank you for the example. I really love this example because it really shows the pattern really clear, like, and helps us, um, move away from that self-blame cycle that so many of us can get caught up into.
[00:10:04] Carla: So we've created a name for this pattern, the lawyer loop.
[00:10:08] Carla: It's not a formal clinical model or anything. It's just something that we have observed again and again in the legal work and through coaching as well.
[00:10:16] Carla: And it maps as closely to what we know about stress and recovery.
[00:10:21] Carla: So if we slow down Emma's experience, we can see the loop very easily. The first part of the loop is that threat scanning. Even when she shuts down her laptop, her mind is still scanning for risk. What did I miss? What is exposed? What could go wrong? And that's not random anxiety. It's the lawyers trained attention doing its job.
[00:10:45] Carla: Lawyers are trained to look for risk, so the mind just stays on. When work feels high stakes, they bring naturally shifts into that like threat focused mode scanning to, you know, look for things, what could go wrong, which it makes so much harder to relax.
[00:11:04] Carla: And then if we tap into the second part is the second part of the loop, it's just the open, the unfinished tasks, you know, the unanswered partners message the unresolved decisions, the things that are not yet captured into a plan.
[00:11:20] Carla: You know, her brain just keeps running like open tabs and it doesn't feel like, it doesn't have the trust that those things are safely held because they are not, they're just open.
[00:11:33] Carla: The third part of the loop is that sort of availability, pressure, the belief that that responsiveness equals competence and safety.
[00:11:42] Carla: So when people feel an expectation to be reachable after hour, it's like linked to work spilling into the home life, and there's a greater strain. Now even when nothing urgent is happening, and there are, I mean, and sometimes we have to be quite careful when we talk about this part of the loop, sometimes there are expectations that you do need to answer, right?
[00:12:04] Carla: But how do we create one channel? Like maybe if some, if you are responding to something, please call, right? Rather than us trying to monitor so many different, uh, all channels.
[00:12:15] Kathleen: Can I just interrupt there, Carla, because it really resonates there that, there's a lawyer in my circle who was an executive of a big legal group, and that lawyer was really good at this.
[00:12:29] Kathleen: Um, and in particular what I noticed that they did is, you know, in their position and there were a lot of sensitive matters that absolutely they had to be consulted with potentially late at night and things like she, there was never a time that they were able to completely be free because of the risks that were involved right, in that job.
[00:12:51] Kathleen: But she was excellent at having the boundaries in place. Even within that constraint, knowing that it could be 7:00 PM that she was, or even 10, that she was getting a message to have that one channel.
[00:13:06] Carla: Yeah.
[00:13:06] Kathleen: And to check that at certain points, but to otherwise be able to separate from it. And I think it was like it wasn't without its challenges.
[00:13:13] Kathleen: Absolutely. And she would rather not have had that responsibility.
[00:13:18] Carla: Yeah, and, and look, and sometimes this is the duty of certain type of work, right? But what tends to happen in this example that you just gave is that you start trusting the plan that you create. So there is one open channel, I will check it, I don't know, whatever the rule is, once a day or, or a few times.
[00:13:35] Carla: And then I know I trust my ability that when something comes up, I will go in there and response. We are not scanning the environment. Is it coming? Is it not come? Is there a tiger here or there is not one. Right. If this is the reality that you're dealing with, how do you create a system that allows for that Reality, one that your, your nervous system can come down, can trust and look, and this is through experimentation as well.
[00:13:58] Carla: Like sometimes we say those things, but we actually have to put into practice and see if it works.
[00:14:05] Carla: Okay, so tap into the fourth part of the loop is that a constant notification detect cues. So her phone, Emma's phone was right there. The inbox is one click away. Her nervous system learns when I feel that spike.
[00:14:19] Carla: I check. So the cue becomes the pathway back into the work mode. Pings, notifications pull you straight back into work. So the frequent eruptions, the tasks switching, increase the mental load and stress. So your attention gets fragmented. And then when you finish the day, you're feeling wired and tired. And then the last part is the rumination.
[00:14:47] Carla: Like replaying the day, running the scenarios. This kind of reflection, it is a kind of self-reflection, but it's one that doesn'tgenerate insights you just get caught up repeating the problem over and over again. So that can really interfere with real recovery.
[00:15:05] Carla: Stress impacts recovery and sleep. The mind keeps working even when the body's off the clock so she can't relax and she keeps thinking about it. So there's, and there is an ability to change this kind of self-reflection into one that, Yeah, we do think about the problem, but then we accept the problem being there, and then we open up, what can I experiment with?
[00:15:30] Carla: And the important refrain in this example is when Emma says, why can't you switch off? It's not because she likes discipline, and it's often because her system is doing what is believed that is required to do for safety and performance.
[00:15:46] Carla: So our aim here is not to fix Emma, but it's to help Emma build a little more capacity, a little more choice inside that loop.
[00:15:56] Carla: And that is what we are doing in this episode is helping you interrupt the loop, not perfectly, but progressively. And the key side here is that a lot of the time you are not choosing to stay on the loop. Your system is sending you cues to stay back in that work mode. So if we try to solve this from just more disciplined, I just have to be more disciplined here, we often fail.
[00:16:23] Carla: Yeah, because we are treating a loop, like a motivation issue, and it's not that.
[00:16:29] Kathleen: Hmm. What you said earlier, Carla, about the rumination piece really, really hits home. And that's because I think thinking about my own experience as a lawyer and those other lawyers that I know, we are trained to be thinkers, right?
[00:16:48] Kathleen: And so we're generally actually pretty good at reflection.
[00:16:52] Kathleen: But we can get caught up in the wrong type of reflection, and we sometimes just think that cognition is enough. IE the very fact that we're thinking must mean that it's productive or useful.
[00:17:06] Kathleen: Mm.
[00:17:06] Kathleen: And I think what you just set out there so beautifully was how we can get caught up in those thinking patterns such that they aren't helpful, and in fact they're profoundly unhelpful.
[00:17:18] Kathleen: And as such, that cost of it can be absolutely huge, right? Because at the very human level you are. Well, let's take Emma Emma's at home. It's the evening, but she's not at home in her mind. She's still entirely at her workplace or doing her work, and so that affects everything. It affects her relationship.
[00:17:44] Kathleen: She's irritable, she's distracted from her physical surroundings and what else is in her life, or maybe she's just really feeling flat and not much. And it also has those huge costs professionally, because Emma's gonna turn up to work the next morning pretty tired. And when she's tired, she's probably gonna engage in that rumination even more.
[00:18:11] Kathleen: And that's probably gonna affect her ability to make really good judgments about her advice, and the decisions that she has to make in her work.
[00:18:19] Kathleen: And maybe that will lead to more mistakes and then more self blame pot, potentially more reactivity, less, better thinking. And even more broadly, like we're stepping back, we're thinking about it, well, how does it affect her in her home life?
[00:18:34] Kathleen: How does it affect her at work?
[00:18:36] Kathleen: Even at her level of her thinking about who she is at, the level of identity, if she never switches off. The job is going to swallow her up. Now, I think that's pretty common in law and I think it's something that we need to think seriously.
[00:19:01] Kathleen: I certainly, again, just wanna mirror your message that it's not about perfection, but it's about progressiveness.
[00:19:09] Kathleen: I am the first to confess here that I am by no means at all, anywhere close to perfect at this. There's some things that I do, but I can just as easily fall into the pattern of going, Ugh, I just need a little break and switching on social media. Talk a bit more about that later maybe, but Carla, where do we go from here?
[00:19:32] Carla: Yeah, so what might actually help Emma and so many lawyers, and a lot of the time it's not just calm down.
[00:19:42] Carla: What helps is changing the conditions that keep the loop running.
[00:19:47] Carla: And again, as you said, we are not aiming for perfection. Like we are aiming for progress, for experimenting, for coming back if it doesn't work and experiment with something else.
[00:19:59] Carla: So the first, suggestion that we would give here, it's like, what about reducing the cues, right? The reducing the triggers that keep pulling her back in.
[00:20:10] Carla: So for Emma, it might be, you know, after eight, 8:30 PM I will turn off the notifications if it fits within, you know, her work not forever. She can try for one week and she can notice how it works.
[00:20:25] Carla: It might be, I'll know, I'll turn off notifications and I will let my boss know, or I'll let the client know. I will set up a different channel of communication, like in the example that he give.
[00:20:36] Carla: So it's a signal to her nervous system. That you are allowed to walk off from work.
[00:20:42] Carla: Now you can separate the work and the personal life and then it allows her to recover.
[00:20:49] Carla: It's not about being dramatic, it's about making the healthy option easier. Creating cues for, to help her environment to like to help her brain switch off.
[00:21:01] Carla: The other suggestion is here is it's also closed loops.
[00:21:05] Carla: You know, there's a lot of, can't switch off in her brain like, so her brain is trying to protect herself from forgetting something, so she could maybe create a shutdown ritual for three to five minutes at the end of the day.
[00:21:22] Carla: She can write down her priorities for tomorrow. Maybe three. She can capture any loose tasks so her brain can stop holding them for her.
[00:21:31] Carla: Like, you know, thinking of a, a, a to-do list, to a list, a part of her brain, the concept of extended mind.
[00:21:39] Carla: The list is going to hold the task for her so she can turn, go to sleep or recover, and then the next morning she can pick them up again.
[00:21:47] Carla: It's almost like it's, it's holding that information and then she can decide with the list is also important to think like. You can't trick your brain for, you know, like you make the list. You have to say, oh, I'm gonna look at the list tomorrow morning, or having a plan to return to it, and she can physically close the laptop and say, my work is done for today.
[00:22:09] Kathleen: I do that, that is one of my disciplines. And my cat now knows it because she will not ask for her dinner until I close the laptop, except if I'm a little bit late, she will jump up on my chair here and make herself known.
[00:22:23] Carla: Yeah, I mean the way that I, that I do the, this disconnection from working in life, I go for a walk around the block and when I come back home I have different shoes. I work from home like you as well. So I have some shoes that IW wear when I at home, but while I work and I have different ones, I have slippers that I wear when I am off work. I can, I go for a walk, I come back home and I put on my Slippers and that, and for my body, that's a signal that work is done.
[00:22:53] Carla: Now we are turning into That's a good idea. The mom mode here, right? Yeah. So these, uh, little steps can help us say, disconnect, create a boundary between work and life. And then the, the third suggestion is recover, it's important.
[00:23:13] Carla: How do we recover on purpose? Like how can we create a practice, deliberate recovery, even if it's small, either like me go for a walk around the block, a 10, 20 minute walk.
[00:23:25] Carla: Maybe it is a shower and a music, or maybe it's a stretching. Or for some people might be playing with their kids, maybe cooking a nice meal.
[00:23:36] Carla: You know, decide what it is that for you. And start experimenting with, and maybe it is a schedule to begin with in the calendar.
[00:23:45] Carla: Maybe it is, you know, having a reminder like to say, okay, I'm turning off and this is what I'm doing now.
[00:23:50] Carla: I'm going to cook a nice meal and take, you know, and experiment and then see what you are learning from it. Is it working for you?
[00:24:02] Kathleen: Yeah, and you can only do that. I mean, I, for me, what I now do is schedule, um, at the beginning of each week, like I, I did it earlier today, certain gym and yoga classes for the week so that they're in the calendar and.
[00:24:17] Kathleen: What makes that desirable for me is then I know that there's a certain time that short of an emergency I have to knock off at that time in order to make the class. So that's a very good discipline. But if I'm not doing that, then it might be. Going for a walk, I'm lucky to live near the beach, so I might go down to the water.
[00:24:38] Kathleen: I always find that helps me shift modes.
[00:24:41] Kathleen: Maybe it's just playing with the cat might be giving a friend a phone call or a family member.
[00:24:47] Kathleen: It might be you know, maybe reading a book.
[00:24:49] Kathleen: I mean, occasionally, and this is where I don't claim perfection, like there are some times when I am tired and I forget all of the this and the advice, and I probably will go and lay on the couch and look at my Instagram account or perhaps turn on the TV to watch something for a while.
[00:25:05] Kathleen: Now, of course, there's nothing wrong with doing some of that for limited periods. The problem becomes if we are then just losing ourselves and we are not, it doesn't help us rest, that's for sure. Is there anything you'd add to that, Carla?
[00:25:18] Carla: Yeah. Often those social media, especially those uh, reels, they tend to keep us wired, right?
[00:25:24] Carla: Like they tend to keep us on that immediate gratification. And that that is not active recovery.
[00:25:31] Carla: So a lot the examples that, that you are just giving, they, like, you've been experimenting with it for a while, like, you know, as we talk, so you know now very well what, what helps you recover.
[00:25:42] Carla: And you have like a menu of things.
[00:25:44] Kathleen: Yes. That's a good way of putting it. It is a menu.
[00:25:47] Carla: Like, and then you can, and then you see in advance you're scheduling the yoga, scheduling, all the exercise, the fitness. And if for some reason that doesn't happen, then you have some other ones.
[00:25:57] Kathleen: Well, in fact, you might even need multiple, like I, I've, I've been experimenting also trying to do more of my gym in the morning, but there is at least once or twice a week that I probably do it in the evening.
[00:26:08] Kathleen: And there's one that I've got a PT appointment and I can't change it at the moment 'cause it's not available times in the morning for that one on a Thursday evening. Now for that, if I just did that and then didn't do other recovery, I'd be quite like alert and too kind of, what's the word? Like jazzed up, like too energetic because I've just done that workout.
[00:26:29] Kathleen: Then I have to do other things, whether that's a little bit of yoga or come home, make myself a nice cup of tea, like a herbal tea with just the lamp on, maybe with a bit of a book or something. And do something else to then bring myself down.
[00:26:47] Carla: Beautiful. Yeah. And, and this is what we would like to invite the lawyers listening to us today.
[00:26:53] Carla: Choose, you know, one of those practices that we spoke about an experiment for seven days. You know, maybe it's an active recovery practice like you just shared Kathleen, like practice, you know, a couple of different things. And then reflect, like gather data. How do I feel when I do this?
[00:27:12] Carla: On a scale from one to 10, how is my ability to switch off when I took that practice?
[00:27:18] Carla: Started understanding how your body reacts to the different activity recovery practice that, that you have. Maybe even right when you are looking on social media, start learning. How do you feel, you know if, when you do that afterwards versus if you do something different.
[00:27:36] Carla: You know, it's all about gathering data. It's not about judgment. It's about understanding what works for you and what doesn't.
[00:27:43] Carla: Maybe it is the practice around a shutdown ritual, you know? How do you create something that helps you create that boundary?
[00:27:49] Carla: I'm leaving work. It's maybe shutting off the laptop or some the other things that we shared here today.
[00:27:55] Carla: For some people, it's managing the, you know, the notifications boundary. Like if you're gonna turn something off, like maybe it's having a communication plan.
[00:28:05] Carla: My response time is so often, you know, like it's, you know, whatever. I check my emails three times a day, letting other people know that.
[00:28:13] Kathleen: Yeah, and I think the other thing to add is maybe don't beat yourself up if you forget or you don't do it, or you find yourself scrolling on Instagram for half an hour, just use it as information.
[00:28:25] Kathleen: But also don't beat yourself up because you know, sometimes in law. Things happen, right? So there are times when you, something urgent might happen and you're gonna have to work late or come back to it in the evening or do something. Yeah. You know, these things can happen. It's not about perfection, but it's just about, well, what's your normal and is there a problem with the normal that you could start experimenting with and creating a new normal rather than kind of living in that emergency kind of uncertain state all the time, you know, because most of us aren't dealing with urgency every single night.
[00:29:00] Kathleen: Okay. What I really like about that too is that there's so much choice in what you can choose. I think from what I've heard, you know, I'm, as you know, I'm already doing quite a few of these different things, but I think what I'm going to experiment with over the next seven days is being a little more deliberate about how I choose that active recovery practice.
[00:29:25] Kathleen: Like it's easy when I've got the gym or the yoga scheduled, but what, what if I haven't and I've, um, and I'm not going out and I've just got a free evening at home.
[00:29:32] Kathleen: Like, what am I gonna do? How am I gonna deal with that? So thank you Carla , for that discussion.
[00:29:37] Kathleen: In the next episode, we're going to go deeper. We are gonna have a look at the hyper vigilance loop. We're going to talk about, well, why does our brain keep scanning for that risk?
[00:29:49] Kathleen: How perfectionism in lawyers can operate like a threat. So if this episode hit home, please share it with a lawyer friend because honestly, so many people think that this is just them and this is not affecting anyone else.
[00:30:06] Kathleen: And as we know, this is just not the case. So if you wanna structured approach to this, the kind that turns insights into habits, that's exactly what we teach you inside the Thriving Lawyer Program. So thanks for listening and we'll see you next time.
[00:30:22] Carla: Thank you.
[00:30:23] Kathleen: Thank you so much for listening to this episode of the thriving lawyer with Kathleen Brenner and Carla Ferraz, if you like it, please share it with your lawyer friends and colleagues, and tag us on Instagram at @thriving lawyer or on LinkedIn via the links in the show notes. And if you liked what you heard, please drop a review in apple podcasts.
[00:30:45] Kathleen: It really helps spread the word.
[00:30:48] Kathleen: If you'd like to work with us, check out our free resources and our signature course, the thriving lawyer which you will find at www.thrivinglawyer.com.au. You can also download our free guide, the lawyer's guide to thriving: a sustainable roadmap for success.
[00:31:09] Kathleen: It's filled with great tips and ideas so that you can begin to make real change. You'll find the link to that in our show notes.
[00:31:17] Kathleen: We hope this podcast has given you massive value. And that you can use it to begin to create your own thriving life. A life where you
[00:31:25] Kathleen: can
[00:31:25] Kathleen: thrive as a lawyer. And in the rest of your life.
