Episode 5 Part 2 - nature FINAL
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[00:00:00] Have you ever noticed that sometimes the answer comes when you finally stop trying to force it? You step away from the screen, you go for a walk, or you water the plants, or even you sit outside for a few minutes, and suddenly the thing that felt tangled starts to feel a little bit clearer. I think that so many lawyers would know this experience.
They might not have a name for it. So you can sit at your desk trying to push through. I've tried to do it many a time, a complex thing, and your thinking just gets blocked. You feel you're just not quite getting there. Then you step outside, you stretch, you move, you perhaps just look at the sky. Maybe you're near trees or maybe you're near water, and something shifts.
Not saying this is the solution to all your problems. The problem might not [00:01:00] disappear, but it's probably quite likely that what you are doing is relating to it even just a bit differently In the last episode, we explored why nature can be so restorative for lawyers. We talked about attention fatigue, why legal work places such heavy demands on the mind, and how green and blue spaces can help restore attention and create the psychological distance from work.
So, in this episode, we're going to continue that conversation. We'll look at nature and what it can actually do for our thinking, our emotional regulation, our conversations, and even our leadership, because nature is not just a place to rest. It can also be a place where we reflect, reconnect, where we see things differently, and where we return to our work and lives with more space.
And just to add to that, I really want us to be able to reflect on this because I [00:02:00] think, you know, lawyers can be very hard-nosed. It can sound really twee or, like, why... You know, sh- like, it just sounds a little bit like, "Oh, of course we already know this," but I think it's worth giving our attention to this, and there's something really big that we can gain from thinking about this.
Kathleen: You are listening to The Thriving Lawyer With Kathleen Brenner and Carla Ferraz. I'm Kathleen, a highly experienced lawyer and an International Coaching Federation accredited coach.
Carla: And I am Carla. Like Kathleen, I am an ICF certified coach and I have worked with top leaders and professionals, many of them lawyers, at some of the world's biggest organizations.
My focus is on using evidence based approaches to help my clients thrive at work and in the rest of their lives. Together,
Kathleen: we bring you the Thriving Lawyer podcast, a podcast filled with ideas and inspiration, as well as practical tips to help [00:03:00] you thrive. As a lawyer and in the rest of your
life. Let's get into it.
welcome to The Thriving Lawyer, the podcast where we explore what it means to thrive in law and life. I'm Kathleen Brenner. And I'm Carla Ferraz. And today, we're continuing our conversation on the power of nature for lawyers. This is part two. So we discussed some of this theme in part one, and we talked about why lawyers find it so hard to switch off, what it is unique about legal work that can deplete our attention, and why nature can be helpful in order to restore the mind.
We talked about this idea of green mind and blue mind, so the idea that green spaces like trees, like parks and gardens, and then blue spaces like oceans, rivers, lakes, and even the sky can help us shift that state and reconnect with ourselves. So, [00:04:00] today we're gonna take that conversation further and explore a little about how nature can actually support our reflection and perspective-taking, and maybe provide the space for better conversations and, ultimately, what we're looking for, which is sustainable performance and healthier legal cultures.
Yeah. And one of the things that I really love about this topic, that it's both very simple but very deep at the same time. On one level, we're just talking about stepping outside, walking, gardening, looking at the sky, or sitting near water noticing trees. Pretty simple. But on the other level, we're talking about how the mind recovers, how the body regulates, how we get perspective, and how we create rhythms that allow us to keep doing demanding work without losing ourselves in it.
So very important. Yeah. And that is so important because, you know, we've talked about this so much in the podcast, but [00:05:00] lawyers are expected to stay in that cognitive thinking mode all day. And it's just not the way the brain actually works. You know, we're analyzing, we're drafting, we're advising, we're thinking about risk and anticipating it.
We're solving problems, we're being responsible, and all of that is incredibly important. But ultimately, it's a lot of thinking, and it can keep us in our heads. Exactly. So in this episode, we want to bring different lenses. We want to explore what happens when we bring the body, the movement, the senses, and the natural world back into the picture.
Yeah. So I think another thing to make really clear here is that we're not trying to encourage you to take up some extra unrealistic well-being demand that you're not gonna be able to fit into your space. So for example, what we're not saying is that lawyers should go on long hikes all the [00:06:00] time or spend hours every day outside.
I mean, those things are great if you can do that, like sure. But I've got one of my dearest friends has just taken a week off her legal career and has gone hiking, but she's planned that for months, right? What we're talking about here is, like small realistic practices, ordinary moments. So it might just be having, I don't know, a few minutes outside or going for a walk after a difficult conversation with a client.
It might be having a plant on your desk. In fact, I don't have a plant on my desk here, Carla, and maybe that's something that I could add myself. But yeah, look, all of these things are all possibilities, aren't they? It could be having a pause before you go home, right? Just in looking at some nature or that conversation that you take-- have outside rather than at your desk That's a good [00:07:00] point.
So let's start with everyday restoration, right? Because I think this is where nature becomes really accessible. It could be the plant in your desk. O- one other example is, is gardening. Right? Gardening is interesting because it's not just about being outside, but it's active, it can be physical. You're doing something with your hands.
So gardening brings us into direct contact with something living. Like, you're touching the soil, you're noticing the growth of the plants, you're watering th- your plants, that I love so much, Kathleen. She'll probably tease me about that. You're paying attention to the light, to the weather, to the season.
It's slow, it's sensory, and it's grounding. So, uh, Kathleen, I know that you've grew up in a house with a very beautiful gardening, and you're- you've been exploring gardening, you know, a smaller version of it yourself. Can you share a little bit about your experience? Uh, yes. Well, firstly, I [00:08:00] am teasing you because I know that you've let your flowers die in the summer and not watered them enough, so I am on your case about that.
But, look, my parents themselves would chortle with laughter if I claimed to be a gardener. So I'm certainly not going to do that. I mean, they have an acre of the most stunning garden, which I did grow up in, and I know that whenever I go into their space, um, I always feel incredibly relaxed and as if the whole speed of life and my whole focus and wellbeing is just shifting so much.
The way it's designed even is, like, even walking through little spaces, you find things constantly. And as the seasons change, things are changing. Being in the veggie garden and seeing whatever time of year, whether it's the depths of winter or the heights of the summer harvest, there will always be something going on there.
And so I know the impact that has on me being in that space. In my own home, I play. I have a few herbs and flowers that I'm looking after and watching my hydrangeas [00:09:00] and my camellias and things like that, you know. So I'm definitely trying to pay more of an effort with that, and I do notice that when I go...
Sometimes I look out and I go, "Oh, I need a little bit of a break. I haven't watered my plants." And it might just be two minutes to go and water the pot outside, just like... And even that going of, you know, just being out and sort of seeing it can be a very, very speedy refresh. So yeah, it's something that I have definitely been exploring the benefits of, I would say.
Yeah, and how might that be useful for lawyers? Well, I think it's useful for anyone. A professional's just an, a great example because of that cognitive load, right? So it's just taking that break and sort of being in a green envi- having a completely different environment that's natural, being connected much more to the natural world.
I know for me, there's green space, like, so the gardening example, but the other important example for me is probably the blue space, because I've got the [00:10:00] beach a five-minute walk away. And I sometimes am astonished, like if I've been working really hard and say after work I go for a quick walk, I'm always surprised at the expanse of blue because my focus has got so narrow.
Like, it's almost like I forget that there is a world beyond the square of my laptop- Mm ... during the day. And to just leave that total world behind and have that rest, and then come back refreshed. Yeah. And then suddenly I might write a whole lot really quickly. Like that, I mean, that's not so much if I'm doing the walk at the end of the day.
I probably d- don't do the lunchtime walks as much as I would like to, but when I do do them, I do notice that I come back and I'm like, "Oh, I've got a clear head." Yeah. What a good point. 'Cause yeah, walking, it's very similar to, to, to nature and gardening as well. Like it's... And it doesn't have to always be a fitness walk.
Like, it can be- Just walking around the block between, you know, [00:11:00] for lunch or, you know, like- I kind of am putting those together because we're, I am fortunate I know that there is a lot of green around where I live- Yeah ... in the neighborhood, and there is also a lot of blue because there's the bay.
Yeah. Um, now not everybody will have quite that, but then I challenge you to think, you know, because I know even, you know, I think we talked about this in the last episode a little bit, how much green there is in the urban streets of Melbourne, in the center of the city, in Collins Street, for example, so we can find it. Yeah. Yeah, movement and nature work really well together. It can be incredibly powerful, right? And there's also research around in the coaching literature suggesting that outdoor coaching can help people think differently. You know, so you're walking side by side, you're feeling less scrutinized.
There's movement that's supporting the reflection, and possibly even influence the perspective-taking capacity, like the sense of openness, the sense of being, an expansion. You know, it can, it help you access different perspectives, different ways of looking [00:12:00] at things. Like, it can reduce the intensity- especially when we're, we're talking about problems that we don't have very clear solutions, right? Yeah. I think that's interesting too because, you know, it might, that outdoor coaching, it might not be appropriate when you know exactly what your goal is and you're trying to have a very strategic planning session of you're gonna do X, Y, and Z.
But I think perhaps, it'd be interesting to see what the research that's been done says, is that perhaps when you're really wanting to think about the dreams or the goal, like the reflection about who you are and growth and possibilities. It's when you want to explore possibility- ... that being connected to nature and in that outdoor environment, I would imagine it would m- perhaps make a difference.
Yeah. A- and this is, we're talking about coaching, but this can also be walking meetings. Yes. When you are trying to... Maybe not when you have to take notes or have to be in front of a screen, but sometimes when you are exploring different ideas or having a conversation about- Maybe a debrief, right? About- [00:13:00] A debrief about, yeah, when you're learning something.
That can be very powerful. Yeah. So just to kinda say that, I'd like to say, you know, if you're in, if you're able to get to Noosa and/or you're in Melbourne, certainly that kind of outdoor coaching, if you're interested, if you're really wanting to engage in a reflective piece, that's certainly something that we can talk to you about Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah So I think you kind of touched on the different environments that might be u- useful in. What I also want to kind of focus on is how when we are thinking about the kind of work that we do as lawyers and the pressure that we're so often under, how that actually can narrow our thinking and put us under stress.
So that goes to that point that I was talking about just a couple of minutes ago, right? When sometimes I forget about the world beyond the four edges of my, uh, laptop, right? Because [00:14:00] I'm so focused on whatever I'm doing, my attention has kind of narrowed, right, just to the immediate task. And that might be urgent, but then if you just stay focused on that too long, you lose your flexibility, right?
And that... So that's why, you know, that example of the walk that I gave of being outside in, in nature has, can have that effect of just kind of breaking that cycle. What do you think, Carla? Yeah, absolutely, because that can possibly affect problem-solving, right? You keep circling the same issue, so very narrowed, like really into to the problem, and, you know, you might not be able to see different perspective.
And can, and, and very often if we stay within the problem and just, you know, trying to analyze the problem itself, we can lead us to rumination, uh, the type of reflection that doesn't generate insight. So nature, walking, going outside can help create that cognitive spaciousness that [00:15:00] is necessary. Like we, in your example, that seemed to be like, "Well, I'm here," like, as I came back from a walk, "and I'm gonna now look at this problem with different lenses."
And that can, you know, help you see, um, a different way of relating to the problem. You might be able to support reflection, you know, creativity, perspe- perspective-taking capacity. You know, sometimes the answer doesn't come when we are just trying harder to stare at the screen. It comes from stepping away, from being outside.
Yeah. And so I reckon every lawyer, like probably every professional, you've-- we've had that experience where, you know, you're in the shower, you have the kind of aha moment o- of the solution, or you're-- or when you're on the walk or something else, and it's, you know, it's just not about being lazy. This is not about just constant breaks.
It's actually about how our mind works, you know. We need to focus, but we need the release. So I [00:16:00] suppose moving on from there, Carla, I want to start thinking about the system rather than just the individual lawyer because we so often hear, and you know, because we're helping here with lawyers, like we can look at this in terms of an individual lens and an individual well-being lens about what you can do.
But this has relevance for culture in our workplaces, legal culture. And the reality is, as you well know, is that leaders shape what is seen as acceptable, and the behavior of the leader has this incredible ripple effect, right? Through the behavior of those that they impact around the organization, often in very invisible ways that are unconscious and not talked about.
So if senior lawyers are never taking breaks, if they're sending emails late at night, if they're working through their lunch, if they treat recovery as a weakness [00:17:00] What does that do? I mean, it sends a really clear message Absolutely. Right? Leaders can imp- employ wellbeing and performance in so many different ways, and that put detachment practice can have a really, you know, big ripple effect.
And sometimes we're not even aware how we're influencing, right? So detachment can be contagious, and p- and so can non-detachment, right? So, so different practices that you can create, like if, well, I'm not going to send this email now at 10:00 PM because I don't want to send that wrong message. Yeah. So, you know, one of the barriers that you might get from lawyers with some of this is saying, "But I work in an environment where my leaders are sending me all these terrible messages, that they're not even aware of it."
You know, and the example here is the partner emailing at midnight, the junior lawyer probably feeling pressure to respond if they get it, and they're still up. If the leader [00:18:00] never takes leave properly, the team learns that leave is not really a safe thing to do. If... And this is probably the next one that I want to raise, about eating lunch at your desk.
This is a big one that I see, even in remote work, like, this feeling that you can't actually leave properly. And so somehow li- as if, as if taking lunch is somehow a sign that you're not actually committed to getting the job done. And, you know, maybe sometimes leaders are not even realizing the signal that they're sending.
They might think, "Oh, I'm just trying to get the job done," right? "I'm just trying to clear my inbox so that it's all ready for me tomorrow when I come back to the desk." Or it could be more, it could be not a great w- message, which is this is what commitments looks like. This is the reality. So what do you say there?
Yeah. And I mean, and there's an element about what the leader should be doing, but then also, like, even for the lawyer who's feeling on the other side of that And look, and it's a bit hard to even talk about that for sure [00:19:00] in, in the past and, and maybe still today. So some cultures do expect that, right?
Like, that, that is the expectation, uh, that you have to be on, that you've got to be re- replying to everything that is urgent all the time. But what we are saying here, like, if this is not where you want... If this is not the message that you want to be giving as a leader, so how do you move from unconscious modeling to a more intentionally modeling the behav- what, what behavior would you like?
Because, you know, like this is impacting... It's different if it's a one-off kind of thing, right? But if this becomes the, the, you know, what is expected daily, you know, how, how is it impacting the employee? Mm. You know, how are they feeling? It's about checking in as well. Like, what are we teaching people about performance?
You know, what are we teaching people that about being constantly available? Is performance being constantly available? What, what is the cost of that? What are we teaching that [00:20:00] sustainable performance requi- re- requires people to step out, requires recovery? You know, what, what is the message? Yeah. And a partner going for a walk at lunchtime is not just taking a walk.
It actually might then be modeling that recovery is a legitimate thing to do. I just want to give one example, right? So I was working with a legal leader, and things were very, very busy, and I started to notice, as did all the lawyers, that their work hours were creeping. Things were... And they were always struggling to get, 'cause the, like, the matter load that we were dealing with was just really, really high.
But the leaders of the legal team was very clear in saying, "This is not your whole life. Go home. You've done enough today. Well done." And there was the explicit permission structure then when everybody felt under pressure. That was hugely valuable. Yeah. I love that because recovery is not a break from performance.
It's part of performance. That break to [00:21:00] step away to like, "We are done here today, and we're going to come back stronger next," wherever, in the morning. When we do rest, we need the rest, right? Like, in order to be able to perform- Yeah ... a sustainable performer, to perform well Yes. Um, yeah, well, th- that's the perfect place here where the sustainable performance really requires oscillation, right?
The main enemy of sustainable performance is the absence of discipline and intimate recovery. This idea that comes from a popular Harvard Business Review article called The Corporate Athlete from Loehr and Schwartz. A- and they describe the need to oscillate between energy expenditure, which is effort with...
and stress, with energy renewal, which is recovery and rest. And that, I think, is actually such an important message because legal culture often celebrates endurance, even now. Like, there has been a lot of change since the pandemic. Um, but I [00:22:00] was only talking to a partner of a law firm recently who was telling me about the demands and the way that they were working, and it seemed to me that there was still a long way to go, really.
Um, you know, we're thinking about those issues around the long hours and just the consistency of those long hours, and the cost that that was having. The availability, that pushing through, like a sense of endurance and stamina and being across everything and never dropping the ball. And I think that one point I just want to make here is that there's a lot of talk about things like grit and hardiness and resilience and, you know, this partner, for example, I remember was talking about her team, and some of them potentially not having that grit or resilience that she would like.
I'm curious about whether we're sometimes getting those concepts confused. Mm. The difference between the endurance and this expectation of [00:23:00] pushing through and being switched on all the time, mistaking that for that grit and hardiness- Yeah, absolutely, right? Because effort matters, excellence matters, and commitment matters- Yes
but effort without recovery is simply not sustainable. We're not machines, right? And in the long term, that does lead us to not be able to... well, to the decrease in performance basically, right? Like, because, you know, high performance in the long term, it requires the ability to be able to recover. So if your judgment declines, if your attention declines, if your emotional regulation declines, and your relationships often suffer as well, then the cost is really significant.
Like, we need rhythm, focus and release, effort and recovery, stress and renewal. And what, you know, this whole podcast here is that nature, it's a simple way to help create [00:24:00] some of those rhythms. It gives the mind or the body a different state. Yeah. It helps create a boundary between work and non-work. It can support that psychological detachment.
It can help restore attention. It can reconnect us with something larger than ourselves, rather than the next urgent task
Yeah. So that is wonderful, Carla, because I think what we're saying here in, in essence, is it's not the only way. There are many other ways to get that oscillation and that recovery, but this is an important, easy way to think about and do it. So what we don't want... You know, this episode, we don't want to think, "Oh, nature, it's just a nice idea."
We really want you to go away from listening to this episode with something practical, and think about a practice that as a busy lawyer that you can easily do. It doesn't have to be dramatic. It doesn't [00:25:00] have to be perfect. It can just be something small. So Carla where might we start? Look, a really good, simple way to start is, like, a 10-minute nature reset.
You know, after a demanding piece of work, go outside for 10 minutes. If it's possible to leave your phone behind. You know, notice three things that you can see. Maybe three things you can hear. The birds, the wind. Notice three things that you can hear, and maybe notice how your body is feeling in the moment.
This helps bring attention out of the work loop, back into the present moment Yeah, and this, I suppose you could do that at any time after any difficult piece of work. Doesn't matter what it is, whether it's you've just... You're a barrister or instructing solicitor in court, you've just come out of a negotiation that's been tricky.
You're drafting along a difficult advice or come out of a challenging client meeting, [00:26:00] and if 10 minutes seems too much, start with three. Yeah, absolutely. Another way is just to, you know, what do I need today? Green mind or blue mind? And if it's green mind, maybe go outside in, in a park. If it's blue mind, and if you have access to water near you, or even looking up at the sky.
Okay. So what about, you know, if we're in a busy city office, I'm just trying to think of what else that could be in... You know, we've talked about the, the maybe the nearest park, maybe finding a fountain, or maybe if you have to do a little bit of a commute, perhaps taking a different route from home so that you pass something different, maybe something natural.
It c- doesn't have to be that perfect nature space. You know, it might just be noticing the big trees in the street in the city, um, that are by the road in the ver- highly urban space. There just has to be enough to shift your state. [00:27:00] So the third practice is what we've termed a legal brain transition ritual.
Bit of fancy language there, but essentially what we mentioned before. So, you know, it's thinking about, well, once we're at the end of our workday, think about, okay, if we've had a lot on, we've been really busy, what are those open loops that we need to close? What is gonna be the big first priority that we're gonna tackle tomorrow?
Close that laptop, acknowledge that we're finished. Step outside, walk slowly for maybe five or 10 minutes. Let your attention be caught by something natural, and, you know, just give your brain that signal that your work is complete for the day. And I think that's particularly useful for those lawyers who struggle to transition between the different states, like going from work to going to home life.
Because I think, you know, we might physically move from one part of our day to the next, but psychologically, like, we haven't actually had that psychological detachment that we need from our work. And so what we wanna do is find a way to [00:28:00] actually create that bridge. Yeah. Another really useful thing to try is a walking meet, meeting.
You know? It, it could be with a colleague or with, with a mentor, a friend, a partner, a coach. Like, notice whether the conversation feels different when you're walking side by side or, or... It's all, all of those things we're mentioning, it's about experimenting and then noticing whether they work for you.
What do they give you? You know, do you feel more, you feel more rested? Does, do they give you the break that you're looking for? You know, a- a- and the f- f- the final practice is these mi- micro nature breaks. You know, it could just be looking at the sky for 60 seconds between calls. Like sit near a window.
Have a plant in your desk and water the plants, which I do have a plant in my desk, Kathleen. And yes, sorry, it does need water. I will water that today . It is Monday morning, right? So I haven't sit in the... I, I [00:29:00] wasn't here in the weekend. Yeah, maybe it's taking one call outdoors if it's possible, you know, or eat lunch outside.
You can start with once a week if, you know- Mm ... if it's possible. Yeah. So I think it's... What I've taken away from this is, you know, it can be this idea of like we want perfection, right? But there is never that perfect moment to recover, and you... The work that you have it's always gonna be sitting there, right?
So recovery can begin in very, very small moments, even when we are very, very busy. And if we repeat those small moments, that can potentially really have a significant impact in changing the rhythm of the day. Yeah. A- and as we're coming towards the end, I want to leave you with some reflection questions.
Like the importance of noticing whether it works for you or not, that's a really big part of whatever you, you experiment with. So what kind of nature helps you feel most restored? Is it green [00:30:00] space, blue space, gardens, mountain, sky, water, sunlight? Where do you naturally feel more spacious or calm? What happens to you when you go outside?
Where could you place one small nature reset in your week? What other questions would you add from a more legal perspective here? Kathleen, is there anything? Yeah. Um, when does your legal brain most need a rest? Like, when do you find yourself most tired? And what are the signals, you know, the cues that are telling you that your attention is running out, that you're becoming increasingly kind of depleted and tired?
And think about your culture that you're in. Be really honest about it, its strengths, its weaknesses. How does it support your recovery? Does it undermine it in any way? If so, what, what's in your power? Um, and if you're a legal leader, what can you do? What are... what is one or [00:31:00] two small things that you can do to try and set a better leadership example to your team?
What are you modeling about detachment from work and sustainable performance to your team? And what change if you treated nature as part of your performance strategy? Like, if you were really trying to integrate it into a trying to improve your performance by actually taking this stuff seriously, like not treating it as some twee indulgence.
Nature is... it's not gonna change the realities of being a lawyer and legal practice. It's not gonna remove the deadlines that you have or the pressures. It's not going to get rid of the difficult matters, the responsibilities. All of that stuff is real, it's there. But what it can do is better equip you to respond and meet those demands.
Yeah, and that's a really good point, right? A thriving lawyer is not just a productive lawyer. A thriving lawyer is a whole [00:32:00] person with a nervous system, a body, relationships, values, and a life beyond work, and nature helps us remember that. So this week we invite you to experiment. Step outside, look up, walk slowly, notice what changes, and perhaps ask yourself, "What kind of recovery does my legal brain actually need today?"
Yeah. Thank you for listening to The Thriving Lawyer, and we hope this episode encourages you to find your own green mind or blue mind and reconnect with nature. See you next time.
Kathleen: Thank you so much for listening to this episode of the thriving lawyer with Kathleen Brenner and Carla Ferraz, if you like it, please share it with your lawyer friends and colleagues, and tag us on Instagram at @thriving lawyer or on LinkedIn via the links in the show notes. And if you liked what you heard, please drop a review in apple podcasts.
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